Logic : religious nuts :: Bowel control : babies?
Feel free to stalk our every post with the f*cking c*nts RSS feed, subscribe to f-ckingc-nts.com by email, follow our new posts and random comments on Twitter, or become a fan on facebook. Go on. You know you want to! All the cool kids are doing it ...
What is it with the religious nuts this week?! From a completely apolitical, secular barter/trade email list being bombarded by the forces of righteousness, to a troll on an old post who took the 'debate' to email, all of a sudden the bizarro arguments are everywhere.
In response to the email list Bible Humpers who emailed me privately (due to other list members started complaining about the ongoing OT bickering), I actually wrote detailed, personal rebuttals, and emailed them back. They never responded, and honestly, since one of them seemed to be the sort of dedicated Humper who can pull bible verses out of her ass on a moment's notice, I really wanted to see what she'd come up with for Round 2.
So, I figured, since the scriptural quote-sters tucked tail and ran, I'd just reprint it all here, for everyone's enjoyment!
So yeah, I'm on this little garagesale/barter/trade sort of email list. A long time ago, the members voted that you could advertise home-based/small businesses on the list, once a month. So, one woman started posting this, once a month:
Adult toy consultant, now booking parties for August. If interested in hosting a party give me a call at 590-5873. Booking incentives, hostess gifts and more. Looking forward to hearing from you soon!
Now, that's pretty damn subtle, if you ask me … especially for a group listed in the "Adult" section of Yahoo Groups. But nonetheless, a Bible Humper got her starched granny panties all in a twist, and after a brief debate about whether or not people were allowed to advertise small business at all, she posted this to the list, to straighten us ALL out:
The dynamics of this group have changed as new people have joined and old people have asked to be removed or have moved away. That was then, this is now, and most of us want this to be a family friendly G-PG site. There's nothing that limits the individual from advertising at the bottom of their email their home-based business, we just don't want to be solicited to. As [another lister] pointed out , there are other Fairbanks and yahoo sites to advertise home-based businesses on. There's a reason people feel ashamed about adult toys because it's morally wrong to please yourself sexually despite what is "popular" with society. If you want smut go to the adult store and face your shameful behavior. Sincerely, Mrs. Holier-than-Thou
Now, the torrent of "shut up you moralizing cow" replies almost convinced me to leave well enough alone, until another Humper popped up with a bunch of verses about God's Judgement™, and then threw in a line about the whole "Christian Nation" thing …
… so, I had to throw my hat in on the list:
Who said that? Was there another vote I missed? The comments in response to this post certainly seem to suggest most people don't have a problem with it.
As someone else pointed out, the list IS in the 18+ section of YahooGroups, so it certainly doesn't seem like it's set up with a G rating in mind … and Ms. Toy-Party's posts were definitely written to be PG.
There's a reason people feel ashamed about adult toys because it's morally wrong to please yourself sexually despite what is "popular" with society.
Live and let live. You're perfectly welcome to spend your entire life trying NOT to experience sexual pleasure … I (and many others) are certainly NOT going to take that advice. If someone was hosting home chastity belt parties, I certainly wouldn't be interested, but I wouldn't go on a tirade about it … I'd just scroll past it and read the next message.
Oh, and the US Constitution doesn't say anything about morality in the bedroom, so lecturing about "immorality" like it's some kind of patriotic value is nonsense. The Constitution does, however, say the gov't can't make laws respecting an establishment of religion. And THAT is what this is about … imposing one version of one religion's moral code on a large group of people who don't necessarily agree.
If there's going to be an actual vote, I'm definitely voting in favor of ALL home business listings … especially since this isn't actually about home business posts at all. If Ms. Toy-Party ran Avon parties, I don't think Ms. Holier-than-Thou would have made a peep.
Later that day, perhaps to clarify The Way Things Are to my troubled mind, a male Bible Humper emailed me privately:
lol
and it also says something about being forgiven also, i like that part, as in what Paul says, do i continue to do these things because of the grace and forgivenesses, i know we all have our own struggles, but as you asked where, there ya are…
Im one of the 85% of the people who likes his country, for its' freedoms, but the 14% of the people tend to scream the loudest, wanting their freedoms to do what Ninevah, what Sodom & Gomorra (just for references, they were into sexual sinning) were doing, but I live in a country founded on biblical principals, and if I didnt believe and practice these principals, though I am a sinner, yet saved by grace, I probably wouldnt also mind living in other countries, where it is illegal to practise religions. So I say, i am not pusPhing here, just answering that people who dont want God in our schools, or any other place should be the ones to experience the third world countries. And thank Him for His grace that we can even say what you and I and we all CAN say.
To which I replied:
The only mention of religion in the Constitution are these:
Article VI: No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States
First Amendment: Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof
So, considering the only two mentions of religion (any religion at all, not specifically Christianity) are prohibitions against its involvement in government, the "founded on biblical principles" argument fails. If the Founders wanted this to be a Christian nation, I'm pretty sure at some point during the two and a half months they were working on drafting the Constitution they would have found a spot to mention it.
And with that, Bible Humper #2 disappeared. Yet still I was lacking specific supporting citations … when Humper #1, Mrs. Holier-than-Thou, returned to chime in via email:
If you'd like a scripture to justify the comment about immorality here's one for ya, 2 Timothy 3:1-6 KJV. It is speaking of our day,"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves…3 WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION..DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD…5. LOVERS OF *PLEASURES* MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD…6.For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and LEAD CAPTIVE SILLY WOMEN LADEN WITH SINS, LED AWAY WITH DIVERS LUSTS."
She then went on to explain how masturbation is actually adultery, and destroys marriages, because I guess if you masturbate, you lose the will to work on your relationship, and don't care about pleasing your partner anymore.
Damn. I only wish I could get myself off THAT well.
So, I responded like so:
Like alcohol, or even video games and television … *anything* in your life that you do in such excess that it interferes with what's really important, is equally bad. My ex-husband didn't drink, didn't look at a lot of pornography, didn't cheat, wasn't violent, or anything else a lot of people would consider "bad" … but he would spend 6-8 hours a day playing video games. And the amount of time he spent doing that, instead of spending time with me, ruined the marriage. The fact that we both masturbated? That never interfered with our sex life one bit. It never caused a problem for either one of us.
So that's what I get from it all … if God tells you to get someone pregnant and THEN you spill your seed on the ground, the problem isn't the 'seed spilling' in and of itself, the problem is that you disobeyed God's orders. And if you love yourself (or any sort of pleasure) to the point where you put that in front of what's really important in life, that's wrong too. Is there anywhere the Bible says masturbation actually is adultery, or is just wrong, without a qualifier like "more than lovers of God" or in a circumstance where God's orders were to do otherwise? I mean, I know there's the "be fruitful and multiply," but you can masturbate and still have plenty of children.
Thanks again for your time!
I don't know if neither of them wrote back because they were appalled at my apparent rejection of All That is Good and Holy, or if they just couldn't find any actual citations to back up their arguments … and frankly, I wasn't bothered enough to look anything up on my handy-dandy new iPhone pocket Bible reference program.
So, I was just settling back into my usual putter-along mode, when the troll popped up here telling me that politics is a sub-class of religion, and the "Declaration of Independence is a theological argument". Which brings us to Part II of Some of What Alphabitch Was Doing This Week While She Wasn't Updating This Site … coming up next.
Bible Humper lol :0) They spread like rabbits if don't keep them contained.
30th July 2008 at 12:17 am | permalink |Delicious ownage, how I love thee.
30th July 2008 at 12:17 am | permalink |Too funny:)
30th July 2008 at 1:56 am | permalink |Welcome to Bizzaro World. Am mad you are here.
30th July 2008 at 3:06 am | permalink |(…) "Im one of the 85% of the people who likes his country, for its' freedoms, but the 14% of the people tend to scream the loudest, wanting their freedoms to do what Ninevah, what Sodom & Gomorra (just for references, they were into sexual sinning) were doing" (…)
I wonder if he even realized the hilarity of what he just said there… o.O
30th July 2008 at 4:39 am | permalink |The main thing the people use as evidence of the whole Sodom and Gomorrah thing being "gays're bad, mmmkayyyy" is that the people wanted to 'have relations' with the visiting angels. Which is based on the biblically inaccurate anthropomorphism of angels as being effectively male humans with wings. They weren't. All biblical description of angels described more what you would expect of a Hindu deity: many arms, multiple heads etc.
Which, if anything, is a warning against sleeping with Hindu deities. Genesis 18-19.
Then there's the whole translating issue. KJV, which seems to be standard around these parts, says 'know'. It's only the versions written by ultra-whackjobs that state explicitly anything to do with sex. The Hebrew ya'da which is translated in KJV as 'know' is, granted, an ambiguous verb. But it is one that generally means 'to know a fact'. Of almost 1000 instances of ya'da being used in the Hebrew bible, only a dozen of those times is it used in 'the biblical sense' - which is itself a misnomer, considering how much factual knowing there is compared to, uh, 'fucktual' knowing (sorry >.>). Oh, and all those dozen times, its pretty damned explicit, *and* always about hetero lurve.
A point also worth mentioning. Lot offered his daughters to appease the mob. Now, some point to the fact that the mob weren't interested to indicate they were all evil HOMOS! EVIL! but it wouldn't make much sense for a guy who lived in the city, who knew the people, to say 'oh, hey, you homosexuals, take my daughters instead'. Cos *that* would work. If they had been gay, Lot most likely would have known (srsly, it's about as likely as someone who's living in the Castro district suddenly wondering why there are men holding hands) and would have just offered the mob his daughters' fiances, who he had legally as much power over. But, no, he offered females to the supposedly rampantly gay men of Sodom.
The interpretation of S&G (not S&M) as a gay thing is almost exclusively a christian peculiarity. Jewish oral tradition holds that the biblically non-specific sin of S&G ("and because their sin is very grievous" g18:20) is greed, lack of hospitality. The Mishnah and Talmud both speak of an array of sins, but no mention of or allusion to anal sex.
Perhaps because it's yet another of these things that has been *made up* by supposedly 'christian' scholars over the years just to make their bigotry seem more reasonable?
I'll not go into all the other fudging and bullshit that's happened to the so-called word of god across the millenia. I have a fairly pointed discourse on the Trinity and its roots in paganism… or maybe Christmas and the winter solstice… the resurrection, too. I could go on >=)
30th July 2008 at 5:26 am | permalink |*Wall of text punches you in the face*
30th July 2008 at 5:32 am | permalink |Thanks for the morning smile & laugh. I needed it!
30th July 2008 at 8:07 am | permalink |@fabrulana: "They spread like rabbits if don't keep them contained."
Bastards … why is it the people who shouldn't reproduce are the ones who do it the most? hehe
@Sage Freehaven: Aww, thanks!
@Rick: I just wish one of 'em had written back! It could have become a multi-page saga of a post!
@Larry: "Welcome to Bizzaro World."
I WANNA GO HOME!!!
@Zef: "I wonder if he even realized the hilarity of what he just said there…"
Bible Humpers never do. ;-)
@grimbles: "… if anything, is a warning against sleeping with Hindu deities."
Or aliens … or octopi … or deformed people … since apparently, "don't rape people" wasn't the point, after he threw his daughters out the door.
Really, with the whole "so he sent his daughters out to be gang-raped by the mob" part of that story, I'm amazed it's gained so much traction as a piece of moral guidance, y'know? The powers of selective reading are truly amazing.
"I have a fairly pointed discourse on the Trinity and its roots in paganism… or maybe Christmas and the winter solstice… the resurrection, too. I could go on >=)"
How about the whole Hebrew->Greek virgin/young woman translation "error" thing? Kinda kicks the teeth out of the whole miraculous foundation of Christianity altogether, no? Or the not-really-biblical origins of the whole "fiery Hell" myth?
I'd almost say I want to start my own religion, with the most absurd backing mythology I can think of, and see how far it gets … but look what happened when L. Ron Hubbard did that. *shudder*
"*Wall of text punches you in the face*"
Great wall of text though. ;-)
@Eric: Always glad to help. hehe
30th July 2008 at 11:51 am | permalink |The post is 'family friendly', nothing unfriendly about it. Do not need to delve into the bible. As you've said it has nothing to do with America. A government specifically designed to separate church and state, to keep religion out of politics. If anyone disagrees with it there are plenty of examples, past and present, of the dangers of mixing religious fanaticism with political agenda.
Anyone catch that Colbert Report where he asks Rep. Lynn Westmoreland to NAME the 10 commandments?
30th July 2008 at 6:49 pm | permalink |Bible humpers (I love that) do seem to disconnect during the "bad" parts of the bible, i.e.: gang rapes, genocide, dashing infants heads against the rocks. It's like it goes in one ear and out the other. The other night at dinner with my very Catholic family, I mentioned the story of God sending a bear to kill the children who made fun of a prophets bald head. My mother said something along the lines of, " I just don't get parts of the Old Testament." I wanted to push further but didn't have the guts. My older sister covered it up for her children by saying it was a different God than Jesus in the old testament. I'm not quite sure my niece bought it, but we'll see. I have hopes for her.
30th July 2008 at 7:56 pm | permalink |Hahaha. I love you.
30th July 2008 at 9:11 pm | permalink |@Anon: That's certainly what I thought. I don't think it's possible to come up with a more inoffensive phrase than "Adult Toy Parties" without losing the meaning completely … but when fundies get offended, they drag God and Uncle Sam and anything else they can possibly grasp at to back themselves up.
Too bad it never works.
@akshelby: Amazing, isn't it? The Christian Right will go on and on about "no sex before marriage", but they'll forget about the part that says you're supposed to kill your wife if she's not a virgin on your wedding night. Most Jews who follow the dietary laws from Leviticus leave out the laws about women needing to either cover their hair, or cut it off.
And when you do find the rare religious sect actually trying to follow all the rules consistently, they're OBVIOUS lunatics.
@aimee: :-)
30th July 2008 at 9:13 pm | permalink |@ alpha: "I'd almost say I want to start my own religion, with the most absurd backing mythology I can think of, and see how far it gets … but look what happened when L. Ron Hubbard did that. *shudder*
That's how we got the Flying Spaghetti Monster. :-)
30th July 2008 at 10:28 pm | permalink |@ab: "with the most absurd backing mythology I can think of"
Um, that's what the Council of Nicaea did, isn't it?
That's one of the weirdest things about the fundies: they're obsessed with the idea that the bible is god's word, and that god is perfect. If that's the case, then why the hell had the bible been changed so much over the last 2000 years? If it was god's word, and perfect, it wouldn't have needed changing… Even people who think that the Pope is the antichrist still abide by more than 1000 years of Catholic dogma and idiotic pervesion.
@akshelby: "a different God than Jesus in the old testament"
31st July 2008 at 12:59 am | permalink |But… but… I thought God was supposed to be timeless and perfect? Why would god change?
*cough*
I like this part as well: "and it also says something about being forgiven also, i like that part, as in what Paul says, do i continue to do these things because of the grace and forgivenesses,"
The "saving grace" if you will(no pun intended). It's OK to sin all week as long as you pray for forgiveness on Sunday (donations also help). For my part, that seems doable:)
31st July 2008 at 3:05 am | permalink |@grimbles - Yeah, no shit! Without the old testament god, Jesus was meaningless. (not that it's not meaningless anyway) Wev. For some reason my sister thinks that religion gives you morals and teaches you right from wrong and keeps you away from drugs and blah, blah, blah. I really don't think she's ever read the bible, or is a christian herself, but she wants her children to be christians to keep them out of trouble. Odd.
31st July 2008 at 2:09 pm | permalink |@Becca: "That's how we got the Flying Spaghetti Monster."
Good point. And I'd hate to steal any thunder from the Great FSM …
@grimbles: "… that's what the Council of Nicaea did, isn't it?"
Man, would I love to have been a fly on the wall there … hehehe
"If it was god's word, and perfect, it wouldn't have needed changing…"
Psh. Details, details.
@Rick: "It's OK to sin all week as long as you pray for forgiveness on Sunday (donations also help)."
Or go to confession, and say all your Hail Marys and Our Fathers … too bad they stopped selling indulgences, that sounded like a hell of a deal. ;-)
@akshelby: "… she wants her children to be christians to keep them out of trouble. Odd."
31st July 2008 at 7:19 pm | permalink |Indeed. When my mom married my step-dad, she decided to convert to Judaism, so her future children would have a "religious heritage". Dunno why, I didn't think I was turning out that badly at the age of 7 …
"The Christian Right will go on and on about "no sex before marriage", but they'll forget about the part that says you're supposed to kill your wife if she's not a virgin on your wedding night."
Hmm maybe that should be reintroduced - it would at least keep their numbers down a bit. On the other hand the idea of thousands of sex-starved male fundies on the loose is even more frightening than the current situation.
1st August 2008 at 1:46 am | permalink |"it would at least keep their numbers down a bit"
W I N
"thousands of sex-starved male fundies on the loose"
I was going to say something like 'do you seriously think george dubya is getting som……' and then I vomited at the thought. Or… *shudder* McCain.
1st August 2008 at 6:52 am | permalink |"the idea of thousands of sex-starved male fundies on the loose is even more frightening than the current situation."
What? It's not as though the women would have anything to worry about. Please!
Larry Craig, Mark Foley, Ted Haggard, Jeff Gannon/Guckert, Lesley Graham, and a whole host of others.
"It's rainin' men, hallelujia!"
1st August 2008 at 9:22 am | permalink |@Ian: Yeah … and move 'em all to their own country too. Like, maybe, Texas? Then the rest of the US could invade, because they're oppressing women (and they have oil)! ;-)
@grimbles: The sad thing is, they both have *shudder* children. And you can't look at Jenna's beady little eyes and doubt that she's her father's child … *gag*
@Becca: "It's rainin' men, hallelujia!"
ROFL!
OK, so perhaps the more relevant argument is: Why subject the homosexual community to that sort of rabid assault?
1st August 2008 at 11:34 am | permalink |I am the over-coordinator of the Milky Way and surrounding areas! WOOHAHAHAHA
1st August 2008 at 1:27 pm | permalink |Hehehe, that's fuckin' funny osso, not only are you God, but you're a Over-coordinator! Hehehe…
3rd August 2008 at 3:59 am | permalink |@OssoBuco: In that case, Great and Powerful Over-Coordinator, could I respectfully request a bit more snow for the Northern latitudes next Winter?
3rd August 2008 at 5:34 pm | permalink |http://www.scalzi.com/whatever/2007/07/13/jesus_dickheads.html
This seems to be somewhat related to the main topic of conversation >.>
3rd August 2008 at 8:19 pm | permalink |@grimbles: ROFL … the graphic is fantastic. :-)
3rd August 2008 at 9:58 pm | permalink |If simpletons want their half-assed black-and-white self-righteous sense of morality, for the love of the FSM, give it to them. Along with a nice cup of shut-the-fuck-up.
The most beautiful part of the right to free speech in this country, is the right to inform someone when they're full of it.
3rd August 2008 at 10:02 pm | permalink |@Adam Seale: If they were willing to take the cup of shut-the-fuck-up, and actually drink it, I'd be thrilled. It's the giant cup of live-by-MY-scripture-or-else that they keep trying to funnel down MY throat that I object to. ;-)
4th August 2008 at 12:37 pm | permalink |"It's the giant cup of live-by-MY-scripture-or-else" - we all try and avoid that one, but every so often someone comes along and tries to ram it down your throat again. IMHO that tells you who the dickhead is who needs a good slapping.
4th August 2008 at 4:08 pm | permalink |At which point you slap them with an 'adult toy' from the 'adult toy party' you attended…
4th August 2008 at 5:52 pm | permalink |@Ian & grimbles: Perhaps the two of you should team up? :-)
5th August 2008 at 12:32 pm | permalink |