Do unto others … and fuck off
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So yeah … by saying "Creationism is bullshit" I seem to have pissed off a lot of Christians. Oddly, I didn't say anything about Christianity itself (Genesis is part of the Torah too, so Jews could have gotten all offended by that too), I didn't say whether or not there was a God (while I don't believe in the "old man in the sky" paternalistic god, I don't discount the possibility that there might be some kind of as-yet unquantifiable "life force" sort of thing out there. I suppose you could call it God if you wanted to. I don't think, if it exists, it would give a flying fuck what you call it.).
And here's the funny part: They're all happy to call me a "religious bigot" for criticizing their belief system … but they're also perfectly happy to tell me I'm going to burn in hell forever for it.
First off, I don't recall anywhere in the New Testament where it says I have to believe it a literal interpretation of the Old Testament to be saved. I just have to accept Jesus as my personal savior, supposedly. So, y'know, learn your own damn religion before you go around damning people to hell, alright?
Secondly, how is it I can't criticize you without being a bigot, but you're perfectly well allowed to damn me to an eternity of hellfire and torment without being a GIANT FUCKING HYPOCRITE?!
What ever happened to that whole "turn the other cheek" thing you're supposed to be doing? (Matthew 5:39 "But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also." What? Did I smite your left cheek instead, and that's the secret sign to call in the brimstone?) Or Matthew 7:5: "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."? And how about the whole John 8:7 thing, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."? Or even Luke 6:37, "Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned:"?! (all quotes: King James Version)
Now sure, you can point at me and blast me for not following any of those tenets myself … but the catch there is that I never claimed to be a Christian. You did. And you're doing a lousy job of acting the part.
I mean come on here people. I'm a bastard for criticizing you, but you can throw all the behavioral tenets of your self-professed religion out the fucking window and start frothing at the mouth at me? You're making all the decent, well-behaved Christians out there look bad. They're probably just too nice to say anything to you about it.
Either prove it, or shut the fuck up about it. That's my feeling toward all religions. The burden of proof is yours, religious people, let's hear it.
27th February 2008 at 5:58 pm | permalink |I think Jeezus did say his followers needed to follow "The Law" unchanged and as it was commanded… but they don't aaand that's another can of worms… I still find it funny that both Christians and Muslims (and perhaps other theists) will criticize, ridicule and caricaturize belief systems not their own, but as soon as that critical eye is turned on their own beliefs and religion…God help you, you damned misinformed, hurtful, bigotted zealot! Creationists, including Muslim and Christians will repeatedly tell normal people how full of shit evolutionary theory is, but for some reason, normal people can't pop their overinflated Creationist colostomy bags. No, how about no do unto others here; instead: if you can dish it, you damn well better be able to take it or fuck off!
27th February 2008 at 6:13 pm | permalink |@davidgx: See, I wouldn't care if they proved anything, if they just quit trying to shove their beliefs down other people's throats. (And yes, I know not all Christians do that … I'm just talking about the ones that do.)
@swamijie: See, I've also heard that Jesus came to "fulfill" the old law, and that's why Christians don't need to follow it. But nonetheless, the Adam/Eve story isn't a law, it's a story. When I hear "the law" and all in reference to the old Testament, I always thought of the ten commandments and all the rules and regs in Leviticus … which most people don't follow anyhow.
27th February 2008 at 6:23 pm | permalink |Just my thoughts.
First I will state that yeas I am a Christian. Though yes I have been "removed from a "couple" of churches given that my views are not always tolerated. Its my burden to carry … I like to argue and am completely incapable of leaving my opinion unvoiced … heh.
So anyways here it goes.
First - I believe in theological evolution. Yea try telling a priest that one heh.
However added with that thought I also say thins. I don't give a flying fuck what any other Christian believes (Or any other group but I will hit that point in a second) as long as if they are saying they are Christian they do believe God did create it all. How is not the important factor.
Second - I do not have the right if I call my self Christian to take away what God gave everyone. Here is my logic. God knows all. Gos Created Adam and Eve. God Created the tree of knowledge. God knew we were going to fuck that up but he put in the the garden anyways. So in the end God decided to give us all choice. I have no rite to preach to someone about how there choices are wrong, they to convert them to seeing the light or any of that other shit churches have there members do to raise there member count and make a bit more off everyones 10%. I cane live my life how I chose and not go around trying to fuck with anyone else. Sure if someone asks me I am more then willing to give my thoughts but if they ain't asking about it then likely they did not want to hear it and even more so they aren't going to be listening so whats the point?
Evey public church I have been to has been a joke of late. The preacher inevitably says something I with the discuss and they they get all pissy. I would rather sit at home in quite prayer on Sundays and just give my 10% to charity. (Which has been the common setup for over a year now.)
Also a side note. I like the Bible is flawed. Ya know that whole written by man bit and man being flawed…
Thats not to say I don't think you can still get the meaning if you read and pray however a lot of people like to just read it and then things usually go south quick. *shrug*
Oh and KJV is not worth it I prefer the NIV…
Oh and this blog rocks.
Oh and davidgx I can't offer you proof though I can tell you for sure I will never manage to shut the fuck up. Faith is not something one can prove really. Though don't feel to bad about it. I understand I looked at just about every religion I could find books about (Yea I existed pre internet and a BBS is not something you can really look that kind of shit up on) then ect.. before I felt anything for any of them and then Baptist almost turned me away from Christianity all together heh.
Well fuck I have typed a whole lot more then I expected. I think I am going to go have some coffee.
27th February 2008 at 7:14 pm | permalink |I am a recovering evangelical, un-convert, whatever you want to call me. I completely agree with the first post, as well as this one. IMO, religion should be a private, personal thing. Everyone gets so righteously indignant about every freaking thing when it comes to religion, and it's pointless. It really has nothing to do with being a decent human being, having values, or your character. The majority of "Christians" I've ever met were hypocritical, narrow-minded bigots who had nothing better to do than pass judgment on people who were, in all honesty, probably much more deserving of oxygen than the idiots berating them. Sadly, to some extent, I used to be one of them. Thankfully, I am free from all that.
I applaud blogs like this, and bloggers who don't give a fuck and tell it like it is.
Keep up the good work!!!
27th February 2008 at 8:13 pm | permalink |@alphabith: I think the thing about Jesus fulfilling the law also includes the statement that he didn't come to change it, meaning Mosaic law is still in effect regardless of his new take on theology, God, life, what have you. Funny, that particular point gets lost amongst "Paul"ites (aka modern Christians). From what I understand, "the Law" includes the 600+ commandments and injunctions prescribed in the Pentateuch, not just the 10 that the twits try to post in public places using tax dollars. I think that since Jesus saw God as Sovereign and central to his view of the religion, you couldn't believe in him or God if you didn't fully accept the Torah. I could be wrong on this, but I also think the original idea was that Jesus is somehow the living incarnation of not only God but also God's words, i.e. the words of the Torah (the whole the Word, Word with God, Word was God, Word became Flesh). Therefore in order to sort of be counted as one of his followers, at least, I think in the early Christians' eyes, you would have to believe in him and God unconditionally, which meant the Bible unconditionally… So, I think, as far as Jesus (and the early Christians) saw it, if you don't believe that a talking snake tricked a halfwit lady into eating a magic fruit who then tricked her quarter-wit husband into eating said fruit… then you don't fully believe in God or his Son and off to the southern saunas with you!
27th February 2008 at 10:26 pm | permalink |btw: I do agree that religion (or lack thereof) is a personal, private matter and NO ONE should tell another how to follow it, live it or be a member of that culture. However, to the theists out there: don't sit there and tell me your religion is perfect and I should believe what and how you believe. Your religion is not perfect, what you believe about it or because of it is neither perfect nor entirely correct, the way you practice it isn't the best way… it is what it is: your religion and no one else's. So if you try to force it on me with glowing praises or righteous wrath, I'll poke holes in it and your beliefs every time, no matter what your religion is.
27th February 2008 at 10:44 pm | permalink |@raven: Once again, I must say that if all Christians were like you, there wouldn't be any religious issues with Christianity. Thanks for your comment!
@deletedsoul: As far as religion being private, I couldn't agree more … in fact, Jesus couldn't agree more either:
Matthew 6:1-6:6
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
@swamijie: You could very well be right … As much of the Bible as I've read, I never really delved into the theological arguments of Christianity.
27th February 2008 at 11:27 pm | permalink |Lol, reminds me of a link I watched yesterday :
http://atheistblogger.com/2008/02/27/george-carlin-religion-is-bullshit/
Rather get big on Sun worshipping…
27th February 2008 at 11:40 pm | permalink |so, i'm jewish. i'm a religiously practicing jew. i realize that this will discredit me in the minds of a lot of people, those liberals who think less of religious people, and those conservatives who think i'll burn for not loving jesus. but there are two major things about the way i practice judaism, and the way i've been taught judaism, that i think are worth sharing despite this disadvantage.
27th February 2008 at 11:45 pm | permalink |thing 1: prostletizing is bad. very bad. for many reasons, which i won't get into here.
thing 2: the more we can learn about this world, the better. learning is a mitzvah. and learning is impossible without questioning/doubting the information available to you. blind faith does not do justice to complexity of reality, and therefore g-d. (and yes, i do believe in g-d, although i lean closer to the disembodied life-force thing. and no, that does not make me stupid. it just gives me comfort.)
I think you'd really enjoy Marcus Brigstock's rant about the monotheistic faiths here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY-ZrwFwLQg
27th February 2008 at 11:49 pm | permalink |I'm always grateful of the religious upbringing I had. My father is an Anglican (Episcopal) priest who would come home and say 'bloody hell I hate religion'! And my mother works in a Muslim school, having been brought up Baptist! I was free to attend church or not as soon as I was old enough to stay home alone, and taught to detest religious bigotry. Anyway, all this goes to say I really like your use of theology to rebutt your critics. And I love your blog! Great writing, keep up the good work.
For what it's worth (an I'm a stranger on the internet, so it's worth basically zilch) I think you're right on. I may be just a cynical Atheist, but it seems to me that religion and hypocrisy often (no, don't jump down my throat - not always) go hand in hand.
What you said about God reminds me of something a very smart man once told me. He said he didn't believe in an old man in the sky. He didn't know if there was a higher power, but he linked any possible higher power's feelings about us to our feelings about ants. Think of an anthill in a sidewalk. To those ants, we are God. We created the sidewalk. We planted the grass. We brought in the soil from which the sand for the anthill was assembled. We made the road and the house by the sidewalk. If the ant eats, it's likely that it has something to do with human intervention. But are we going to damn that ant? If that ant doesn't believe we exist, do we give a flying fuck? Do we even want to _know_ what that ant does with its genitals (do ants have genitals? The analogy might break down a bit here.) I say no, and by the same token have no reason to believe that any possible higher power gives a crap what we do or don't do, believe or don't believe.
Also for what it's worth, it seems you've caught a lot of flack for your (unexpectedly popular?) "10 things every adult should know" post. I admit I saw it on Digg and that's what brought be here, but your feed is now on my google reader and I, as a stranger on the internet, think you rock. Keep it up, don't let the naysayers get you down (not that it seems like you're going to let that happen.)
28th February 2008 at 12:16 am | permalink |Interestingly enough, i also believe (as an atheist) that religion and spirituality are deeply personal issues. They are all the more important for everyone who considers themselves a non-theist for one important reason: We are choosing to live according to a set of morals because we believe them to be the fairest and most enlightened way to govern humans affairs for the benefit of all. This takes severe self-examination and consideration.
we ARE NOT living according to a certain set of moral because AN INVISIBLE SKY DADDY WILL SET US ON FIRE UNTIL THE END OF THE FUCKING UNIVERSE if we dont…
I guess my main point is that being a non-theist requires MORE love for your fellow man and woman. Theism (at least in the monotheistic religions) is entirely based on fear.
28th February 2008 at 12:38 am | permalink |This reminds me of a quote I read the other day.
Mahatma Gandhi once said:
28th February 2008 at 12:39 am | permalink |"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."
@quirkycircus
28th February 2008 at 1:38 am | permalink |i like the quote. hadn't heard that one, i'll haveto keep it in mind. i also agree with the majority of what you've said.
i do, however, have to disagree with the monotheistic religions based on fear thing. don't get me wrong, i'm sure there's plenty of cases in which that's accurate. but to say that about all monotheistic practices would be to ignore a huge portion of the world's monotheists. it's an awfully large brush you're painting with (to be all metaphorical and stuff). for example, there are christians who have posted on this blog in opposition of that point.
i also don't exactly follow the idea of a non-theism requiring More love etc. that's because i don't follow the idea of anyone being More of anything, certainly not on the grounds of what belief system they follow. again, because of the broad-brush thing.
wait, is this a blog or a website? i'm afraid i don't know the difference. my appologies, i'm very much not a computer person.
28th February 2008 at 1:40 am | permalink |hahaha, OWNED.
28th February 2008 at 4:04 am | permalink |As Penn and Teller say, really reading the bible is the best tool for making new atheists. It's full of contradictions. But, faith is it's own teflon against logic. People either don't see or care about contradictions in the bible, or in their lives. Once you've decided to abandon rationality, rationalization of practically anything becomes possible.
28th February 2008 at 6:32 am | permalink |I think religion formed when early sapiens attempted to collect, organize and structure some ability to explain occurrences of both the environment and their thoughts. Not knowing any better, it gave those with a better connected neural network a power or influence. While the heart was in the right place, slowly it became corrupted by this power and influence. It is unlikely that cigarettes and booze could kill as many folks as theism.
I want to believe in something but cannot because the evidence compels me to NOT believe. None of the holy books can reasonably imply, infer or account for 13.5 billion years.
With mild reservations to the kind religious folks, y’all believe in bullshit. I just hope it guides you righteously unlike your moronic brethren.
28th February 2008 at 8:19 am | permalink |Sparrows: a blog is a web site.
28th February 2008 at 9:00 am | permalink |If there are any brave religious people here, check this out: http://zeitgeistmovie.com/
28th February 2008 at 12:07 pm | permalink |@fabrulana: George Carlin rocks. :-)
@sparrows: "blind faith does not do justice to complexity of reality, and therefore g-d." That's a good way of thinking about it, if you're going to be religious in the first place … (and yes, a "blog" is just a type of website. Personally, I think the word "blog" sounds stupid, so I just call it my site. I've been posting essays online since before the word blog came about anyhow. hehe)
@Anna: "My father is an Anglican (Episcopal) priest who would come home and say 'bloody hell I hate religion'! And my mother works in a Muslim school, having been brought up Baptist!" That sounds great! :-) My mom had a bunch of random eastern religion books on the bookshelf, along with a family Bible (which I now own), and then converted to Judaism when I was 8. I think a diverse religious background is one of the best things you can give a child.
@Russ: "(unexpectedly popular?)" VERY unexpextedly popular … sheesh. It was just a space-filler post because I couldn't think of anything to write a proper entry about. lol!
@Maxattaks: "Theism (at least in the monotheistic religions) is entirely based on fear." Well, of the years I spent in Hebrew school, I don't remember anything about eternal damnation or any obvious fear-mongering. Even the Christian Bible, to the best of my recollection, isn't heavy on fire and brimstone as a personal punishment. I think that sort of fear-based theology was primarily a medieval construction of the Christian church back then … but it certainly has some staying power, doesn't it?
@quirkycircus: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." That's another great one!
@Mark: Penn and Teller … also on the "people who rock" list. :-)
@ray: "None of the holy books can reasonably imply, infer or account for 13.5 billion years." Yeah, unless you go back to Genesis, and go with the "each of God's days lasts billions of years" reasoning, that is a bit of a hole, isn't it?
28th February 2008 at 12:59 pm | permalink |perhaps you're right…each of the first days the almighty was working took nearly 2 billion years before chilling for another 1.7 billion years….
makes one wonder if he's lazy or if he's NOT that omnipotent to make gravity gather bazillions of pounds of hydrogen for nuclear fusion.
god was probably sparking the doobie between tasks..
28th February 2008 at 1:06 pm | permalink |Eddie Izzard does a good explanation of that 13.5 billion year gap including Jesus preaching to the dinosaurs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoL7AqJ1Ivo
28th February 2008 at 1:24 pm | permalink |I just want to tell you that this probably is the best fucking blog I've ever read!
28th February 2008 at 1:30 pm | permalink |If all Americans were as bright, funny and could express themself without that "We're the best, fuck the rest"-mentality that so many of you've got, the earth would be a better place. But hey, I'm not saying that you're the only ones, many of us Swedes can be stupid fuckers as well.
Love from Sweden!
@ AB : I'd say - I'm definitely getting more of his "stuff"…
@davidgx : Zeitgeist movie took the start from George Carlin. Zeitgeist was excellent. Be sure to check out
28th February 2008 at 3:32 pm | permalink |"The Parmacratic Inquisition" as well on Google.
@johan : damn for a moment I thought you where my buddy from Egypt, who I introduced the site recently to… anyhow like George Carlin said you meet stupid people anywhere, and then there are those who are full of shit etc.
28th February 2008 at 3:37 pm | permalink |You yell at the dogs, they're going to bark back.
But I really do find it frustrating how many people believe symbolic fantasy as literal history, taking it over growing science and reason.
And how sensitive people can be when you so much as call it "a little silly."
28th February 2008 at 4:00 pm | permalink |@akshelby: Eddie Izzard rocks too. ;-) (And goodness, he looks nice in heels, doesn't he? lol)
@ray: Yes, the linked Izzard video explains all that, including the pot smoking. hehehe
@johan: Oh, I don't think human stupidity is an exclusively US trait … not by a long shot. ;-) We just seem to be one of the nations most willing to back it up with force these days.
@adam seale: Although I understand what you're saying, I don't know any dogs that bark back at me when I scold them. hehehe
And don't you find it a bit amusing that ancient Greek/Roman/pagan religions are taught as "myths" nowadays, but the Judeo-Christian religions are supposed to be "fact"?
28th February 2008 at 4:27 pm | permalink |It's funny you should say that, alphabitch. Check out Wikipedia's entry on mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology
28th February 2008 at 5:09 pm | permalink |I know Wikipedia isn't exactly the repository of the most reliable, peer reviewed knowledge, and, to conservative nitwits it's the Internet incarnation of Dr. Evil, but it's a starting point, and, they do quote the Oxford English Dictionary. According to that entry, the Bible also contains a collection of mythology… who woulda thunk it?
@swamijie: Shocking idea, isn't it? lol
28th February 2008 at 5:45 pm | permalink |I find a lot of the occurances in the bible to be somewhat disquieting.
For instance, is there a reason demon possession is no longer an issue? I was reading over some of the new testament the other day, and I realized that they seem to use the concept of possession almost twice a page in luke and mathew.
Some might argue that demon possession was not meant to be taken literally, but it was used inline in context with the words of Jesus. It could be argued that possession was just another term for menal illness. However, at one point Jesus holds a conversation with some demons before he sends them into a group of pigs. If we take it literally, then how come they don't exist anymore, or have any physical presence? It would be odd for them to be a day to day occurance in Jesuses day, but not existant in ours…I smell steer smear.
28th February 2008 at 8:57 pm | permalink |Yeah this is so true. It pisses me off when people try to force their religion on you. And I am mainly talking about Christians. Then the second we do it, they freak out on us. Or even if I just share my views to them (I'm atheist), they freak out and say God is real. Blah Blah Blah. Why can't we just believe what we want with no conflict? :(
29th February 2008 at 10:37 am | permalink |@autodidact Unfortunately, many Pentecostals and other conservative Christians consider demon possession real. In the catholic charismatic movement, homosexuality is caused by demon possession. People still write "scholarly" books on the subject of possession. The Roman Catholic church still appoints official exorcists in each diocese and apparently, exorcism is on the rise. Many people still have not moved out of the medeival period.
29th February 2008 at 11:48 am | permalink |ok, last comment for me, then i really am moving on.
@aimee: i share your confusion. or the pissed off bit. i, for one, feel both. but i think i have a partial explanation for the "why can't we just believe what we want with no conflict?"
i've been reading this book: "the book of jerry falwell" by susan friend harding. scarry as fuck, yes. but informative. (not written from a falwell perspective, by the way, its an anthropological view of his followers.) according to the book, all that hellfire and brimstone is there to scare us into loving jesus. they aren't so much saying 'you will burn no matter what' as much as 'we really don't want you to burn, we want you to be happy, and the only way to do that is our way'. but they sure have a fucked up way of saying it. i guess it makes sense to a bunch of people, though, even if not to me.
29th February 2008 at 1:11 pm | permalink |my fellow commentators, please watch this: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-869630813464694890
29th February 2008 at 1:13 pm | permalink |@sparrows: Yeah, they're only berating us to save our souls … I know I'm touched by their "concern". hehe
Hope to see you back soon!
@ray: Nice. Watching it now.
29th February 2008 at 4:52 pm | permalink |What is interesting to me about the Christians is that they were like this from the very start. Most people think that they do this as a reaction to something but they were doing this from day one.
29th February 2008 at 8:50 pm | permalink |When the religion of christianity first became distinct from judaism in the middle east it was under the control of the Romans. The Romans understood that there was a religious ban on paying respects the the Gods of any other religion for the Jews so they were given a special dispensation to not have to make the signs of respect or tithes to the state temples. Then the christians popped up and said that they were not going to pay or make respect to the state gods either.
At the time this was seen sort of as a cross between a loyalty oath and a part of a bargain between the state and the Gods so not doing this was considered to cause disruption between them. But the Romans were extremely practical people so they could work out a compromise if they needed to.
So the Romans said to the christians that they get this tax brake because they were a part of an existing tax break for the Jews. The christians refused. THey said they would not pay respect or taxes and would not allow themselves to be given a tax break either.
The Romans at the time lamented in letters that they were very tired of the chrisitians trying to force the Romans to kill them. They causes so many problems that they became declared as state terrorists.
Most people believe that the Romans persecuted them for not being pagan and hated them. The Romans were one of the most religiously tolerant peoples in history.
Another thing that people believe is that christianity used to be nice but it became distorted and corrupted over the years through bad translation.
Nope. Christians are the world's first and largest Hate Group!
Nothing more and nothing less.
Amen to that! (A little irony, oh how amazing I am)
This world would be such a good place without religion.
2nd March 2008 at 3:17 pm | permalink |@garrowolf: Thanks for the history! I didn't know most of that. :-)
@john: *groan* ;-)
2nd March 2008 at 5:50 pm | permalink |Geez….where to start?
@garrowolf–I'd love to see your citations for that so called history of Christianity. The tax break thing? The opposite of the way I remember it. The first-century Christians (who were Jews) fell under the umbrella of Judaism–because they were technically speaking a sect of it.
@alphabitch–Jesus' story about 'giving alms' (btw, what are you doing quoting the KJV?? I mean, who does that?) in private had nothing to do with religion being "private." It had to do with being authentic (i.e., not a hypocrite). Jesus was talking TO religious people in this passage (NOT non-religious people). There was this group of Jews called the Pharisees and they were constantly doing things so that people would SEE them and think they were good Jews. Jesus was condemning that behavior–basically showing off. He wasn't talking about practicing religion in private. In fact, if you flip a couple hundred more pages to the book of Acts–which is basically where we got the idea of how to 'do' church–there is no such thing as private or solitary religion. It was a communal thing from the start.
@akshelby–Who says demon possession doesn't happen today? What evidence do we have that it doesn't? If human beings are sophisticated enough to socially evolve over the last 2000 years, couldn't demons be also?
@swamijie–Yes, when anyone in the Christian Bible says "the law" they are referring to Mosaic law. After all, when all of this was happening there was no "new" testament. There was only the Torah. Christians aren't bound by Mosaic law anymore. When Jesus came he did say–you're right–that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Try a google search on Old Covenant/New Covenant theology. Basically, since Jesus died on the cross, somehow (and I have no idea how this works) his blood fulfilled the law. Fulfilled in this sense meant that it was 'complete' or 'finished' or 'now obsolete.' So, no, we don't have to send a woman away for 7 days when she's on her period and yeah, now we can eat bacon. Yum!
@whoever said the thing about the Bible not accounting for 13 billion years of history–it's not supposed to. Never was. Never will. The Bible (christian or jewish) is a collection of stories, some literal some not, some mythical, some not, from the ancient near eastern culture of the 1st century. It's not a scientific manual, nor is it a history textbook. Sorry if someone has represented it to you in that way. It's not true. The Bible (christian or jewish) is the story of God's relationship with his chosen people, the jews. It's more like….creative non-fiction (?) than a textbook of any discipline.
Okay, I'm tired of typing now. But I do want to say to all of you that I'm sorry that you've met and/or interacted with Christians who were not like Christ. Jesus loves everyone–even if you don't love him (or believe in him for that matter). Hell and fire and brimstone? I don't know about all of that.
Check out Rob Bell or Donald Miller or if you really want logic and spirituality together then see Greg Boyd. Peace.
3rd March 2008 at 8:48 pm | permalink |@letmebethe1st2apologize: "The Bible (christian or jewish) is a collection of stories, some literal some not, some mythical, some not, from the ancient near eastern culture of the 1st century. It's not a scientific manual, nor is it a history textbook." Well, that's basically what I always thought … but there is a significant contingent of Christians on the US political/social scene these days who assert out one side of their mouths that the Bible must be taken literally, and ignore half of it out the other side. And it was to them that I was primarily addressing this rant.
I'll check out Acts though. I just like pulling out the part about praying in the closet and waving it at people who run around telling other people they're going to hell, while wearing their "devout" Christian beliefs on their sleeves (and bumpers, more often than not).
As for quoting the KJV … it happens to be the version I own. ;-) What translation do you recommend?
3rd March 2008 at 9:26 pm | permalink |@alphabitch– Thanks for the qualification. I'd recommend a great book called How To Read the Jewish Bible. Also, I'd recommend you download some Rob Bell from http://marshill.org/teaching/index.php. He has a very Christ-like attitude and some really awesome ideas about religion and Christianity in general. As with many things, there are plenty of Christians out there who don't like him. They're wrong. ;-) He's spot on.
As for translations, there are plenty of good ones. The KJV is hard to read and was written before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, so it's not even based on the oldest (read: most reliable) manuscripts. The NIV, the TNIV, or the NRSV are all good. Seriously, though, check out that How To Read…. book. It will clear up soooooooooooo many misunderstandings of so many of the posters here.
Also, with regard to Christians taking the Bible literally, they usually really don't–they just don't know it until you start asking them all sorts of questions. The most helpful distinction in that area I ever heard was a professor who said, "Do you take the Bible literally, or seriously?" The answer is (nearly) always the latter.
Another awesome book (disclaimer: written by a Christian monk) is called Opening the Bible by Thomas Merton. He describes the Bible as "true, not literal." The overly zealous Christians who claim to take the Bible literally are out of sync with historical Christianity and are–BY FAR–the uninformed minority. As far as how to read the Bible properly, no one will be able to teach you more than a practicing Jew. Find yourself a rabbi if you want to understand Christianity! Ironic, huh? :)
Peace.
3rd March 2008 at 9:48 pm | permalink |@LetMeBe1st2Apologize: Thanks for the recommendations.
One of my problems with religion in general is that there is no final authority about how to interpret anything. If you interpret things with a bit of common sense, and an understanding of the difference between allegory and historical fact, you generally come up with something agreeable in nature …
… but in the absence of God himself stepping down from the clouds and straightening us all out, it up to each individual believer to determine their own truth. And as with so many things humans get up to, this tends to lead to the loudest and most obnoxious points of view getting the most exposure.
I'm immensely pleased that my obnoxious little site has succeeded in flushing out a handful of reasonable, thoughtful Christians to pitch in their two cents. :-)
3rd March 2008 at 10:55 pm | permalink |@LetMeBe1st2Apologize What evidence do we have that demon possession happens? We have scientific evidence that epilepsy, schizophrenia, and a host of other physical and mental illness exists but absolutely no scientific evidence that demons exist. I have a friend who is epileptic whose parents tried to have the demon expelled when she was a child. The only thing this accomplished was to encourage her to hide when she felt a seizure coming on. Funny how the only thing that controlled it was medication.
4th March 2008 at 11:13 am | permalink |@akshelby–I have no evidence of demon possession. I was responding to the question 'what evidence do we have that demon possessions occurred?' I'm just saying what evidence do we have that they don't? IF they happened for thousands of years why would they stop now? I don't claim to know everything that happens and I DO believe there are things that happen that we (humans) don't know about. I believe in a God that I can't see, I believe in ghosts, so why not demons? I don't know. I also never equated demon possession with mental illness or epilepsy. Peace.
4th March 2008 at 12:49 pm | permalink |First of all congratulations for the blog, it's fucking amazing!
Untill some years ago I wasn't aware there were people actually literarly believing in creationism except from few halfwits. That's because where I live (Europe) hardly anyone cares about what religious leaders have to say.
But the fact is that creationism in disguise as Intelligent Design (even thought quite obvious) is trying to come back, through a backdoor of pseudo-scientific/ religious theory. Which is perfect if you want to create a sort of :American taleban" state, which is what creationist try to do AFAIK.
But when you report that creationism is horseshit (a factual information) then you are disrespectful! It is perfectly fine to criticize people, politicians, organisations … but why not religions? What is that makes them above critical thinking? God said so it's not a valid answer I am afraid.
4th March 2008 at 12:52 pm | permalink |@LetMebe1st2Apologize Sorry if I came off in a bad way. I just don't believe that they occurred for thousands of years anymore than I believe the sun orbited around the earth just because people believed it did for thousands of years. I think many physical and mental illnesses were attributed to demonic possession because they could not be explained any other way.
4th March 2008 at 1:25 pm | permalink |@baley–Your post reminds me of my favorite line from the movie "Jurassic Park." As they're flying over the island seeing it for the first time, Jeff Goldblum's character says, "God created dinosaur. God killed dinosaur. God created Man. Man killed God. Man created dinosaur." LOL
I, along with every scientist who has ever lived, would love to see your "factual information" that disproves Creationism. If Richard Dawkins can't do it, I doubt you can.
My point: just because you don't believe something doesn't mean it's not true. :) For the record, do any of you believe that anything exists that is unknowable? Any Cartesians in the crowd? Just curious.
Peace.
4th March 2008 at 6:31 pm | permalink |