Christian Nation?! I don't fucking think so.
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OK, about a half-dozen posts ago, I said I was writing a more detailed post about America's status as a Christian Nation. Then real life smacked me upside the head, and long, involved posts got put on hold for a while. Finally, here we are.
THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS NOT A FUCKING CHRISTIAN NATION*. The founders had this funky idea about the US being created as a nation of personal liberty, and they didn't want some religious assholes fucking that up for anyone who didn't recite state-sanctioned prayers to a state-sanctioned deity. Theocracies have a long, ugly history of oppressing citizens who adhere to non-government-sanctioned religions. Just read a history book about the Inquisition or the Salem Witch Trials. Ask any Christians trying to practice their faith in Saudi Arabia today. Ask an old Irish Protestant or Northern Irish Catholic.
*For the purposes of this post, "Christian Nation" means a theologically-based government wherein religious morality is a valid basis for legislation.
You religious folks should all be fucking HAPPY about this … because it means that nobody can legally fuck with YOU about YOUR religious beliefs. But there's that contingent of Bible-thumpers who seem to think it's their God-and-Founders-given duty to weasel their fucking religious morality into the US law books … and while I suspect many of the leaders of this movement are happily and intentionally distorting history to serve their political ends, a great many of the followers are just plain fucking ignorant of US history and our foundational documents (as evidenced by the woman elsewhere online who, when I said we were not a Christian Nation, used the inclusion of "Under God" in the Pledge of fucking Allegiance as "proof" of our nation's Christian roots).
So, I'm going to sort a few things out for everyone. The United States of American IS NOT and WAS NEVER INTENDED TO BE a Christian Nation. The popular myths that support such an absurd claim are founded in pure wishful thinking, and here's why:
MYTH: The Founding Fathers were devout Christians.
FACT: Some of them were. In fact, most of them can be associated with some at least nominally Christian denominations. However, in day to day life very few of them were practicing "Christians" in any modern sense of the word … many of them were Deists or Universalists, and a few others were downright anti-religious or atheist.
A few salient quotes regarding religion, from a few of the Founders themselves:
- John Adams: "Twenty times in the course of my late reading, have I been upon the point of breaking out, 'This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!'"
- Thomas Paine: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of … Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
- James Madison: "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
- "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
- Benjamin Franklin: "… I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to [Jesus'] divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble …"
- Thomas Jefferson: "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." ~Notes on Virginia
- "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."
Hell, Thomas Jefferson even created his own version of the New Testament by cutting and pasting from two bibles, in order to remove any and all references to any supernatural or miraculous events, including the resurrection. Why? Because, as a Deist, he did believe in God, and he did believe that the Christian system of morality was valuable, but he did not believe Jesus was the savior of mankind, and did not believe in the miraculous events ascribed to his birth, life or death.
And really, the individual Founders' religious leanings are completely irrelevant to our primary question. Even the pious among them felt religion should be kept out of government … not only to prevent religious oppression of other faiths, but to keep the corrupting influence of politics out of the sanctified realm of faith. (Think on that next time you see a televangelist talking about politics.)
And that brings us to what is actually the primary point here:
MYTH: America is a Christian Nation.
FACT: It is not, and was never intended to be. The Constitution does not mention god even once. There is only ONE mention of religion in the entire Constitution: … no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States (Article VI).
The good people at the Constitutional convention drafted and ratified the foundational document of our government with no mention of the Christian god, or any other deity. This in and of itself ought to be sufficient argument to shut down any suggestion of the religious foundation of the country. Or maybe, in the weeks the Framers spent hashing all the details out, they just forgot to include the part about the role of religion in the Federal government? Oh, wait, that's right! They did forget! And when it came time for the states to ratify the new Constitution, the Framers' oversight was pointed out.
So, in order to secure ratification, Congress corrected the omission … in the very first amendment added to the original document (which might suggest something about its perceived importance at the time): Congress shall make no law regarding an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof … (And for those who think the First Amendment only means the government cannot establish a state religion, early drafts that explicitly specified only a ban on state religion were rejected in favor of the much broader final version.) The government cannot make laws concerning religion or state support thereof. At all, period.
A few more salient quotes & excerpts:
- "…a man's religious tenets will not forfeit the protection of the Laws, nor deprive him of the right of attaining and holding the highest offices that are known in the United States." ~George Washington, in a letter to a church in Baltimore
- "There is not a shadow of right in the general government to intermeddle with religion. Its least interference with it would be a most flagrant usurpation." ~James Madison
- "A Pagan or Antichristian Pilot may be as skillful to carry the Ship to its desired Port, as any Christian Mariner or Pilot in the World, and may perform that work with as much safety and speed." ~Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island
- "Let man hold whatever religious opinions he chooses provided he does not actually disturb civil peace." ~Rhode Island Charter, 1663
- "As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion …" ~Treaty of Tripoly, signed by President Adams 1797
- "The First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State." ~Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association, 1802
- "I consider the government of the United States as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises." ~Thomas Jefferson, on refusing to create a national day of prayer
- "No sectarian tenets shall ever be taught in any school supported in whole or in part by the State, nation, or by the proceeds of any tax levied upon any community." ~Ulysses S. Grant, 1875
Personally, I blame the US educational system for our national ignorance of the actual contents of the US Constitution. Instead of studying something substantive like that, most kids are trained to memorize a list of the US presidents and other such mission-critical trivia. So, thanks to our state-sponsored ignorance of our own government's origins, Americans often hold up utterly fucking irrelevant things as "proof" of our nation's Christian pedigree:
MYTH: The Pledge of Allegiance and the design of US Currency PROVE we're a Christian Nation.
FACT: I'm a little stunned that this even needs to be said, but apparently there are a lot of people who have NO FUCKING CLUE that the Founding Fathers had fuck-all to do with the Pledge of Allegiance or the inscriptions on US Currency.
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 (100+ years after the Constitution had been hashed out and agreed upon) by Francis Bellamy, for a Boston children's magazine. In October of that year, it was recited by a large group of schoolchildren in commemoration of the 400th anniversary of Columbus' voyage. Note: See how it has NOTHING to do with the founding of the country, or any legal government establishment whatsoever?
Although Bellamy was an ordained minister, he did not include any reference to god in the original Pledge, which read:
I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands. One Nation, indivisible, with Liberty and Justice for all.
"Under God" wasn't added to the Pledge until 1954, when the Cold War against the Soviets was popularly framed as the struggle of "Godly America" vs. "The Godless Communists". It was essentially anti-Soviet propaganda.
As for US currency … if you give the Constitution a read-through, you'll notice—along with saying NOTHING about god—it says nothing whatsoever about currency design. "In God We Trust" was first added to US coinage in 1864, only on the one cent and two cent coins. Over the years, it was added to, removed from, and added again to various US coins until 1938. The phrase did not appear on US paper currency until 1957 (and did not appear on all US notes until 1966) … again, during the height of "Godly America vs. The Godless Communists," aka. The Red Scare, aka. The Cold War.
Incidentally, "In God We Trust" was also designated as the national motto in the mid-fifties. Because, y'know, reciting a schoolchild's pledge, chanting a motto, and writing the word "God" all over the place is a sure-fire way of magically keeping the Godless Communists at bay. Kind of like hanging "evil eye" talismans over your door to ward off malevolent spirits!
Now, lest you think this is all just the blasphemous raving of a hell-bound atheist bitch, see what the Quartz Hill School of Theology, a Southern Baptist ministerial school, has to say in their Notes on the Founding Fathers and the Separation of Church and State. One brief excerpt:
"Why do Christians want the founding fathers to be Christians? [...] It is because they hope that by demonstrating they were Christians, they can justify their political agenda. Rather than wanting something new (the injection of Christianity into government) they seek to restore something they imagine has been lost.
Reality: nothing has been lost. It wasn't there to start with. Therefore the whole concept of 'taking back America' is a lie. America was never Christian."
Very interesting article.
26th June 2008 at 5:51 pm | permalink |All semantics.
Sounds like a desperate attempt to convince yourself otherwise. Good luck frustrating yourself, God bless.
26th June 2008 at 6:00 pm | permalink |@Christian: "The letter of the law" (in this case, the Constitution) is anything but mere semantics. Of course, a lot of Christians seem to think "Thou Shalt not Kill" is semantics too, so maybe this immunity to written law is a peculiarity of your faith?
What is it like, living with a holy blindfold over your cerebrum?
26th June 2008 at 6:08 pm | permalink |It's obvious that the Southern Baptists were tricked into saying that by the devilry of a blasphemously-raving hell-bound atheist bitch: All good Christians know that history is what church leaders say it is.
Yes, fully aware of the contradiction. That's the point :p
26th June 2008 at 6:11 pm | permalink |[...] States a "Christian Nation"? June 26, 2008 at 10:22 pm | In Miscellaneous | According to f*cking c*nts, HELL NO, it's not. The founders had this funky idea about the US being created as a nation [...]
26th June 2008 at 6:24 pm | trackback from Is the United States a “Christian Nation”? « Sage Freehaven’s Rant Hole@ Christian.
Please die. And if by chance there IS a god you DO get to heaven and see him, please kick him in the balls for me.
Thanks again.
26th June 2008 at 6:40 pm | permalink |Heh heh nice work. You'd think these would be religious patriot walking around with their dicks in their hands would have read the Constitution, would have read the cliff-notes written by the founders. But as usual the religious prefer to believe their preferred belief system over a rational one. They never change, but then that's what religion is all about, fear of change.
26th June 2008 at 7:08 pm | permalink |I find it ironic considering the government was setup in the manner it was to protect religion from the state as much as anything. And yet here we have groups trying to undermine that which protects them. Makes no sense does it?
26th June 2008 at 8:35 pm | permalink |@ Larry
Yeah, I think government needs to start regulating the fuck out of the inner workings of every church in the nation.
See what they think about separation of church and state then.
26th June 2008 at 9:11 pm | permalink |Beautiful. Thanks for doing the research and shouting some ideas I've been whispering for years.
Thanks,
26th June 2008 at 9:39 pm | permalink |Chaz
Unfortunately, you can't really refute a statement like "America is a christian nation" because "christian nation" has no single, widely-accepted meaning. If you define "christian nation" as a nation in which christianity is protected in the constitution, then the statement is verifiably false. In contrast, if you define "christian nation" as a nation in which the culture is strongly affected by christian values, the whole matter is far more ambiguous.
I don't try to play these silly games with fanatics. Religious people define everything circularly so that you can never win an argument with them. This, however, doesn't make them right.
26th June 2008 at 11:08 pm | permalink |From here in the UK, we look over the pond at you American guys shaking our heads… good to see there is at least one of you who A: understands your own constitution, and B: can look at the world in a rational way and realise that there are no such things as Sky Fairies.
For more, I recommend Sam Harris' book: 'Letter to a Christian Nation'.
27th June 2008 at 1:31 am | permalink |@DavidGX: Start taxing church income, and see how quick they all start squealing about the separation of church and state. hehehe
@DAVE ID: "You'd think these would be religious patriot walking around with their dicks in their hands would have read the Constitution"
Yeah, I'm sure some of them have, and then promptly forgot about it when it didn't serve their needs. ;-)
@Larry said: "… the government was setup in the manner it was to protect religion from the state as much as anything."
Yeah, a lot of the strongest proponents of the First Amendment were deeply religious. It would be ironic, except I think the truly, heartfelt-ly deeply religious people in the US today aren't the ones arguing for prayer and "intelligent design" in schools …
@capn0jack: You're more than entirely welcome. :-) More people need to start shouting this shit.
@Kavan Wolfe: "Religious people define everything circularly so that you can never win an argument with them."
True, but to recycle the tagline from an old website of mine: "When I tell the truth, it is not for the sake of convincing those who do not know it, but for the sake of defending those that DO." ~William Blake
There is great value in giving other people the confidence to speak their mind when they happen to agree with you. Word of mouth is how movements get started.
@Adam: Funny you should mention that book … I just got it in the mail today. Haven't read the whole thing yet, but I'm hoping I don't regret publishing this post before I read it. ;-)
27th June 2008 at 1:44 am | permalink |I really like the post. I am a US Citizen and live in Vegas. I believe in God (or something like him/her), but not am not a practicing Christian. I respect others beliefs in this area and feel they are no more right or wrong than I am. I agree, the issue of religion and calling us a Christian society is ridiculous. The idea of this country is much larger than the religion its wide variety of people decide to practice (or not practice).
The comments about our Constitution are interesting and offer a different view. I may not agree with all of them, but I certainly respect them and thoughtfulness that inspired them.
The US Constitution has been in existence far longer than any other constitution today in any other country. The idea, I think, was to leave the general guidelines of our country vague enough for flexibility in how to interpret it. Whether or not we are a Christian society is not as important as the fact we are a society that continues to thrive (at least for now).
I fear for our country's future. I don't pray for it as I am not sure that would do any good :), but I do try to do what I can to ensure it continues to exist. And a conversation like this only gives me confidence that it will.
27th June 2008 at 12:29 pm | permalink |@ Christian (and any other functional idiot that wants to start spewing you ridiculously absurd mysticism):
To anyone that wants to argue that the United States is a Christian nation or founded upon the Christian religion, I ask you this:
Q. Where in our Constitution does it acknowledge or state that the U.S. relies upon the Judeo-Christian God, Christianity, or Christian morality?
A. It doesn't. Period.
More …
27th June 2008 at 2:44 pm | permalink |@Kevin: If you really look into the issue, this isn't a "different" view on the Constitution … it is the unanimous view of every modern Constitutional scholar without a blatant religious agenda.
@Becca: But remember, the Constitution is "all semantics" … so what it says doesn't actually matter! ;-)
27th June 2008 at 3:47 pm | permalink |With cleverly selected quotes you can 'prove' one way or another whether America is a christian nation.
Reality will prove the real truth.
27th June 2008 at 4:37 pm | permalink |@Ian: With cleverly selected personal quotes, you can 'prove' one way or another whether the Founders wanted the US to be a Christian nation. However, the vast majority of "pro-Christian" quotes relate nothing beyond the particular Founder's opinion on personal religious practice, while all quotes I've found (and believe me, I looked) concerning the role of religion in government are unanimously in favor of separation.
Additionally, the Constitution and Amendments have NOTHING in them for the pro-Christian side to 'cleverly' use in their favor, which I think, pretty much proves my point.
27th June 2008 at 4:59 pm | permalink |@ Christian - WOW! What a well founded rebuttal!
As Kavan pointed out, before we can debate the phrase "Christian nation" and whether it accurately describes the United States, we would first have to clearly define it. Since roughly 75% of the US population adheres to some form of Christianity, one could argue that we are indeed a Christian nation. It seems to me that being a Christian nation (in terms of numbers)doesn't mean we should or were ever intended to practice "dominionism".
Now that being said, it seems that our founding fathers went to great lengths to ensure that the other 25% of us had the same rights that are afforded everyone else, and that the dogma of any religious group would not impact/influence any laws governing our country.
I apologize in advance, but I'm going to go slightly of topic here just a bit to get this off my chest. In all fairness to our Christian nation bible thumpers, they surely don't have a monopoly on imposed ideology(of any type). Below I'm going to give a link to a story I read this morning. This happens to be close to home for me(in terms of distance), but I could just of easily shown hundreds of similar examples around the country. I have no evidence to support or suggest this idea was contrived as a result of any Christian beliefs. No, this puppy was born from complete ignorance.
Now keep in mind before/if you read this article that Flint Michigan was rated third by CQ Press annual ranking(behind Detroit, St Louis)as the most dangerous cities in the country. The jails are so full, convicted felons are being released early to make room for new arrivals. Michigan has a whole leads the nation in unemployment with an astounding rate of 8.5%. I mention this only as a reference to the priorities (and resulting actions)of our elected officials. I believe this type of ignorance to be a national issue!
No I don't, nor do I have any kids who dress like this.
http://abclocal.go.com/wjrt/story?section=news/local&id=6230430
27th June 2008 at 6:02 pm | permalink |Very well written article. Thank you, alpha.
Also, the Founding Fathers all very much objected to being deified by the people, as we seem to be doing today. Not only changing their personal religions to suit our own needs, but treating them like the very royalty they worked their lives to overthrow. The whole process is demeaning to what they actually stood for.
I think it is also worth noting that Christianity, the dominant religion in this country, is neither the dominant religion in the rest of the world, nor had the majority of human beings throughout recorded history believed in it. Hard to fathom how today's religion is absolutely right and majority of humans who have ever lived are wrong. Frankly, that's why I love America, because at least in theory, there's tolerance for believers of all types.
27th June 2008 at 6:07 pm | permalink |@ Ian: More to Alpha's point, regarding the U.S. Constitution, there is this:
God is not mentioned once. Religion appears exactly twice, once in Article VI where the "no religious test" prohibition is articulated, and once in the First Amendment prohibiting the establishment of any religion.
Now, if an entire Constitutional Convention comprised of 55 delegates from 12 states, laboring for 2.5 months, sought to "establish a Christian nation," it would stand to reason that our Constitution would be more reflective of the alleged Christian establishment than a document devoid of reference to the Judeo-Christian God and explicitly banning any establishment, requirement, or reliance upon any "religion" which, by definition, includes Christianity.
Or did they just forget to add that part in?
Of course, there have been multiple attempts to amend our Constitution to explicitly include Christianity: In 1863, 1874, 1896, 1910, 1954, 1962, and 1998. All have failed.
Q. So where is the Christian God?
A. NOT in the U.S. Constitution.
The fundies can pick and choose whatever quotes they wish to make the argument that America is a Christian nation, but their arguments have one fundamental flaw, and that is that there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever–within the confines of the U.S. Constitution–that this was ever intended to be a "Christian nation."
Or the shorter version: Their arguments are bunk.
27th June 2008 at 6:25 pm | permalink |As soon as I'm back on my laptop, I'll append this to the post: For the purposes of this post, "Christian Nation" means a theologically-based government wherein religious morality is a valid basis for legislation.
27th June 2008 at 6:53 pm | permalink |ab: I *did* have a post saying basically that, but it was mistaken for CHE4P V14GR4!
The distinction I see - not sure it it is intentional - is in the capitalisation. 'Christian nation' as a descriptor, where Christian is an adjective. "Christian Nation" is a proper noun, much like the distinction between communism (an economic theory) and Communist (the party that took the name and twisted it).
I read somethin elsewhere that some Christian-right nut-job has been bashing Obama for saying something very similar to this back in '06. Basically he said that religious morals are great, and you can lobby for them to be legislated, but until you can make a convincing *secular* argument for their inclusion on the books, you can fuck off. Though, y'know, somewhat more… politely.
Making laws about something because the bible says so is called Theocracy you cretins. And, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it Theocracies like Iran that are EEEEEEEEEEVILdoers?
27th June 2008 at 7:13 pm | permalink |But of course it's not a fucking double standard, because you're *allowed* to be hypocritical, right?
Will you marry me?
27th June 2008 at 8:17 pm | permalink |And you know damn well that if the same christians who want their bullshit legislated to the entire nation got wind of people trying to do the same stuff in this (US) country with islamic laws/teachings they'd shit bricks.
27th June 2008 at 10:06 pm | permalink |@Rick: "I have no evidence to support or suggest this idea was contrived as a result of any Christian beliefs. No, this puppy was born from complete ignorance." Oh, I won't pretend for a moment that all the legal stupidity in this country is the fault of the fundie fuckwit camp. Nono. Plain ol' human ignorance is responsible for a hell of a lot of it … well, ALL of it, if you count that as the underlying reason for the continued popularity of superstition among modern Americans. hehe
@Elie: "… today's religion is absolutely right and majority of humans who have ever lived are wrong." Apparently god just took his sweet-ass time getting the word out? ;-)
@Becca: I'm still a bit baffled as to how that one point isn't sufficient to shut down the argument completely.
@grimbles: "The distinction I see - not sure it it is intentional - is in the capitalisation." Oh, it was entirely intentional, I assure you. :-) And I'll be adding my working definition of Christian Nation to the post in just a moment.
And you ought to know: Theocracies are only EEEEEEEEEEVIL when they're not Christian. Duh.
@Impressed: Aww. I haven't gotten a marriage proposal out of this site in a couple months. :-) But, no.
@David: Are you kidding? The really hardcore ones are already shitting bricks about imagined attempts at making Sharia Law the law of the land. But of course, making a big deal out of imaginary things is really a strong point for hardcore religious folks, so maybe that's to be expected.
27th June 2008 at 10:27 pm | permalink |@ Kevin
The oldest still used national constitution is that of San Marino, not the US.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_San_Marino
It's also arguable that the Magna Carta qualifies, though it's scope was much narrower, and of a slightly different legal form than what's tended to be called a 'constitution'.
@ a-b: It was obviously me being proposed to, sheesh. Still no though *cough*
27th June 2008 at 10:57 pm | permalink |@grimbles: I'd not count the magna carta as a constitution. And in a sense the Code of Hammurbi is the oldest known codification of laws or whatever. Saying who is first is silly and meaningless anyway.
@christian: Do you know what the word semantics actually means? Just wondering.
In the end no argument will satisfy the fundies that this is not a christian nation. You are arguing w/ faith here. No way to win unless said believer suddenly gets disillusioned. As for the religious bent of the US. The surveys I've seen also qualify the numbers. Looking on the wiki the one they reference has a 40% number for respondents who claim to be religious but have no affiliation with any church. I wonder what the real numbers are.
28th June 2008 at 5:03 am | permalink |@Larry - Since Wiki is a compilation of thousands or perhaps even millions of different resources, numbers can/do very significantly. I myself didn't see that 40% figure. Then again I didn't look very hard. Below are two references I looked through.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_United_States#Race_and_ethnicity
Interesting that the second survey (conduct by ARIS)
28th June 2008 at 6:05 am | permalink |was 50,281 (interesting number) random phone calls made only in the continental U.S.. Apparently in 2001 phone calls to Alaska and Hawaii were too costly to be included in the survey.
Of course, you are factually correct, but you ARE going to hell. :)
28th June 2008 at 10:08 am | permalink |Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Yooohaaa!!! Let’s make our own fuckin’ religion Alphabich! I’ll be the fonder (or you would, I don’t care.) We’ll make some inspirational speeches to people, wow, and all the money we could make? And think about it. Because government is funding various religions, we’ll be richer than the Vatican. If we get suckers enough to listen to our crap….
28th June 2008 at 2:02 pm | permalink |Religion tries to summer up what the hell is going on. Where did we come from, where do we go, what the hell are we, and if we aint why not.?
28th June 2008 at 2:54 pm | permalink |We're reading old books written thousands of years
ago then start making big motherfucking buildings that costs billons of dollars., then we dress up certain assholes, we call them priests, stuff them in fabulous costumes and let them make unbelievably scene shows for people present. This makes an awesome impression on a little man or gal (like us), with our little pretty Sunday clothes on.
At the same time we forget why we started the whole charade in the first place.
To find peace and answers.
Just remember this: religious fundies don't want to hear facts. They only do and believe what their preacher tells them to. Unfortunately, there's no way to argue with them cus all they say is, "The bible says so!" even though most of them haven't read the whole thing.
Remember those silly bumper stickers, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it"? Yeah, try having a debate with someone like that.
I've noticed none of the fundies have commented on this post to try to debate the facts. The only one who did had nothing to say.
Great quotes and nice info. I never knew that about the ole pledge we were forced to recite every morning in elementary school back in the 60's. Do they still do that now in US schools?
28th June 2008 at 4:01 pm | permalink |The problem is there's no fact. if there were,re we all been rumblin' around in would be nee no religion, but :
28th June 2008 at 4:09 pm | permalink |smurlumurlghphpmuhghrly
and that's what's funny…
28th June 2008 at 4:18 pm | permalink |I hope any fucker who's reading my shit, is thinking for semselves, and think, only fucking think!! (I know me and me selfe have a hard time about it…)
The more i post the more i'm drunk. Sorry Alphabich! Sorry.
28th June 2008 at 4:24 pm | permalink |lol
28th June 2008 at 7:44 pm | permalink |@Rick: I wonder how they factored in those who say they believe just because they don't want to sound bad. One interesting bit I've quoted below. I still think that the true level of religion in the USA is a lot lower than many realize.
"Gallup International indicates that 41%[40] of American citizens report they regularly attend religious services, compared to 15% of French citizens, 10% of UK citizens,[41] and 25% of Israeli citizens.[citation needed]
28th June 2008 at 8:50 pm | permalink |However, these numbers are open to dispute. ReligiousTolerance.org states:
"Church attendance data in the U.S. has been checked against actual values using two different techniques. The true figures show that only about 21% of Americans and 10% of Canadians actually go to church one or more times a week. Many Americans and Canadians tell pollsters that they have gone to church even though they have not. Whether this happens in other countries, with different cultures, is difficult to predict."[40]
In, a 2006 online Harris Poll of 2,010 U.S. adults (18 and older) found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often," 9% went "once or twice a month" 21% went "a few times a year," 3% went "once a year," 22% went "less than once a year," and 18% never attend religious services. An identical survey by Harris in 2003 found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often," 11% went "once or twice a month" 19% went "a few times a year," 4% went "once a year," 16% went "less than once a year," and 25% never attend religious services."
@Larry: "In the end no argument will satisfy the fundies that this is not a christian nation. You are arguing w/ faith here. No way to win …"
I know. I'm not trying to convince the devout. I'm trying to convince the fence-sitters and bolster the confidence of the folks on my side who don't want to talk back to the god-floggers.
@pedro: "Of course, you are factually correct, but you ARE going to hell."
If they're right, I damn well am. And all the people I'd like to hang out with for eternity are too. ;-)
@bill: "Yooohaaa!!! Let’s make our own fuckin’ religion Alphabich!"
I can think of a lot less pain-in-the-ass ways of making money that that. lol
"… we forget why we started the whole charade in the first place. To find peace and answers."
Well, it failed miserably on the first count … but buddhism still does a pretty good job on the second count. I suspect its main failing is the lack of a "Father God" figure who will take responsibility for all your fuckups for you … Buddhism, in the end, lays responsibility in your own lap. Father God fanatics don't want that.
@Alaskan Dave: "… religious fundies don't want to hear facts."
Yeah. I wasn't trying to convince them, I just hoped a few more of them would come and bitch at me. hehehe. But as you pointed out: "… none of the fundies have commented on this post to try to debate the facts." Dammit.
"Do they still do that now in US schools?"
They did in the 80s … don't know about now. I suspect it matters where you're going to school. I hope. heh
@bill: "The more i post the more i'm drunk."
28th June 2008 at 8:58 pm | permalink |hehehe. Like David said: LOL :-)
@ab: "I'm trying to convince the fence-sitters and bolster the confidence of the folks on my side who don't want to talk back to the god-floggers"
I don't understand people that don't thoroughly enjoy talking back to the god-floggers. It is possibly the most enjoyable passtime in the world >=D
"If they're right, I damn well am. And all the people I'd like to hang out with for eternity are too. ;-)"
The way I see it, Pascal's wager is a crock. If there is a god that cares if you're a good person, lip service isn't going to cut it. And if a god cares about lip service, and is thus incredibly vain, what the fuck kind of god is that? If it fucks off 'god' that I'm a good person but don't believe in the correct - or any - human representation of it, well then fuck god. A good deity wouldn't give a shit who's name good is being done in as long as it was done. And any other deity isn't fucking worth worshipping, Pascal be damned. So to speak >.>
@Larry: How much people actually are religious is I think a very pertinent question. I suspect that the US probably still has a higher proportion of *actually* practicing theists compared to its western peers, but I doubt that it's as high as some people claim. Perhaps its just a statistical anomaly, but the majority if US residents I've encountered either don't give a squat about religion, think there isn't a god, or think that god doesn't exist in a building.
Then again, maybe the majority of bible thumpers are afraid of the intertubes.
29th June 2008 at 2:55 am | permalink |@Larry - "I still think that the true level of religion in the USA is a lot lower than many realize."
I think you're probably right! I imagine there are some who want to believe "just in case". Then there are those that say they do believe, yet they fail miserably to practice any of it's actual principles.
29th June 2008 at 4:11 am | permalink |"hen again, maybe the majority of bible thumpers are afraid of the intertubes."
You're probably right there, their preachers have told them the net is awash with the spawn of satan and that even practising muslims are allowed to use it.
There are historical reasons for the US having a higher proportion of practising theists, given that many of the early waves of emigrants from western europe left because they felt that european nations were not tolerant enough of their beliefs. (And if you know anything of the Huguenots in France, they may well have had a point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huguenot)
29th June 2008 at 8:37 am | permalink |I don't think anyone's contending it's not higher, it's just not as high as some people would like the world to think. :p
29th June 2008 at 6:49 pm | permalink |It still amazes me just how much of a disconnect there is between those that claim to be "true patriotic americans" and their grasp of "america's principles".
Very often fundamentalists point to the constitution as the law of the land and how it cant be changed when it comes to gun control laws and such, but when it comes to tolerence of those that are different, or religious beliefs, they are exceptionally naive. America was founded on the basis of immigrants, and accepting people who are being persecuted in their home country (most often RELIGIOUS persecution in the beginning of the country… go look up what the statue of liberty is inscribed with for citation), but these days america is one of the hardest countries to emmigrate to.
The political process as well, with obama taking a hugggggggggge amount of heat for his supposide "muslim" roots, and McCain trying to appeal to the "fundies" because he is weak in that area… their personal religious beliefs should have NO bearing on the voting public, and if it does than i think there are bigger issues than if america is a christain nation or isnt, especially as almost every religion i know is based on peace and goodwill towards your other man….
im not sure what this posts contributes, i just had to rant because this issue shouldnt be one to begin with, the constitution deals with it firstly, before freedom of speech which the press constantly harps on about, and before the right to bear arms, but because there are many many morons in the world it is an issue…
"I'm not saying we should have a punishment for being an idiot, i think we should just remove all warning labels and let the problem deal with itself"… unknown internet author
30th June 2008 at 4:14 am | permalink |@ grimbles: For a more complete refutation of Pascal's Wager, try this:
The Idiocy of Pascal's Wager
30th June 2008 at 7:46 am | permalink |@grimbles: "A good deity wouldn't give a shit who's name good is being done in as long as it was done. And any other deity isn't fucking worth worshipping …"
I completely agree. Been saying more or less the same thing myself for a long time. :-)
@everyone: Regarding the percentage of "religious" people in the US, the last poll I heard about included people who believed "god" was an "impersonal force or presence in the universe" … which pretty much excludes them from the strict definition of any Judeo-Christian religion.
My mom falls in that category, and never goes to synagogue yet still calls herself Jewish … which is crap, IMNSHO. (Of course there is the argument that "jewish" encompasses both a religon and a cultural/racial group … which is all fine and good, except Mom converted. ;-)
Either you believe the tenets of your religion, or you're not a member of that religion in any meaningful sense. The whole point of religion is to embrace a defined set of beliefs. You don't? Great. Call yourself "religious, but unaffiliated" or join the Unitarians.
So, basically, the *actual* religious-ness of Americans can be stated as such: An overwhelming majority of Americans believe in some kind of higher power, and a slightly less overwhelming majority claim affiliation with a particular church … but in day to day life, hardly any of them actually walk the walk that corresponds to the talk "their" church is talking.
30th June 2008 at 2:50 pm | permalink |Very well researched, and SPOT ON.
3rd July 2008 at 2:33 pm | permalink |@Thomas: Thanks. :-)
4th July 2008 at 4:59 pm | permalink |Whooooaaahhh! Just hold it before the glad-handing, back-slapping and ass-kissing starts! This is not over, Christian's illogical 2+2=5 response is no fucking worse than Becca's E=MC5 invocation of the constitution as the ONLY yardstick of her nation's identity. I s'pose Becca's narrow view is understandable, as an atheist she doesn't have much of a support network barring
11th July 2008 at 8:43 am | permalink |Cut out the smoke & mirrors shit please. The Constitution of the US has as much bearing on the identity of the nation in the 21st century as The Rubayatt of Omar Khayyam (sp? can't be arsed checking)has on the state of Iran today. You fuckers invoke this ancient shite just to try and look smart. THEY don't give a fuck that you have the conche and the code says that the person holding the conche holds the floor. There's a shitload of them and they got the spears and rocks and they are prepared to use 'em.
THEY wrote the fuckin rules and posted 'em on the side of the barn. All animals are created equal but some are more equal than others. Don't be a dumbass donkey and evince utter amazement when the rules have changed next time ya look.
Serious now. The Native American had a righteous code of conduct in dealing with all things earthly. What happened? The Great Spirit got superceded by the fuckers who wrote the shite you hold so dear and refer to as GOSPEL. Guess what? Your founding fathers got superceded by Hoover and Nixon, Bush Senior & Junior, Cheney, Rumsfeldt and all the other nasty guys who are giving the finger to a nation of like-minded Christians.
You poor fucks would do better spending less time trying to define Christianity and more time looking at the spiritual 'State of the Nation'. Like it or not…..you are a pretty shitty little minority.
@Gareth: Fuck the "spiritual State of the Nation", Gareth. The whole idea of the structure of the US Government is to prevent the "tyranny of the majority."
Blacks were a minority back when slavery was abolished, and a whole lot of people didn't think the slaves should be freed. And a whole hell of a lot of people didn't think women should ever be given the right to vote (even though we're a numerical majority, in most places). Oh, and the idea of blacks and whites going to the same school?! Fuck that!
Oh, and while we're at it … what was the percentage of Germans who thought it was worth actively standing up for the rights of the Jewish minority? Or the gypsies and homosexuals?
Darn those pesky minorities, they really ought to just shut the fuck up and learn their place, shouldn't they? Praise Jesus and tell the slave girl to pass the mashed potatoes!
… yeah, good thinking Gareth. Really good thinking.
Mix your fucking literary metaphors all you want, it doesn't change the fact that the legal foundation of our country stands to this day with no successful amendment injecting religion into it anywhere … and it doesn't change the fact that majority mob rule, and the violent injustice it engenders, is exactly what the Founders were trying to avoid when they forbade the mixing of Gov't and Church.
11th July 2008 at 9:58 am | permalink |