What about the little bitches' fucking parents?!
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So by now everyone has probably heard about the six teenage girls in Florida who beat the ever living shit out of a 16 year old classmate, and videotaped it to post on YouTube, while two teen boys acted as lookouts. People have been blaming reality TV, YouTube, the internet in general, MySpace, public schools, and every fucking other thing you can possibly think of … but in all my news searches, I've hardly seen anyone pointing fingers at the vicious little monsters' parents.
What the fuck is going on here?! These vicious little shitheads bashed Victoria Lindsay's head against the wall until she was unconscious, waited for her to wake up, then commenced beating her a second time. Then she was loaded into a car, driven away from the crime scene, and threatened with an even worse beating if she went to the police. Why? Because she was posting "trash talk" on her MySpace page.
And now, Victoria still hasn't regained full sight in one eye, or full hearing on one ear, and the perpetrators' fuckwit families are trying to cover for them …
The grandmother of Mercedes Nichols, who's house was the site of the attack, claims her granddaughter is, "really a loving, caring kid." Christina Garcia, Nichols' mother, says the whole incident is being blown out of proportion, because only "the worst" three minutes of the 30 minute tape were released. But then loving, caring Mercedes apparently posted a comment on her MySpace page reading, "YALL I'D DO IT AGAIN". (Her MySpace page has since been deleted, so I couldn't personally verify that.)
Stephen Schumaker, one of the boys who guarded the house during the half-hour long assault said, "I don't see why I'm even in this whole situation," after his family started receiving abusive phone calls and death threats. His mother said, "They weren't really involved, I don't know. I'm just overwhelmed by all of it. I don't know why the girls have them involved," (I'm not sure what standing guard while a girl gets beaten unconscious is, if it isn't "involved.") while his father blamed the officer who released the tape, "Grady Judd, our great sheriff, he made a mountain out of a molehill with all these trumped up charges for these kids."
When the girls were arrested, one asked if she would get out in time to go to cheerleading practice. Others laughed, and said they guessed they wouldn't be going to the beach during spring break after all. 14 year old April Cooper giggled while a judge set her bail.
None of the teens involved have shown a moment's remorse.
I'd like to see some new laws on the books holding parents partially legally responsible when their kids do shit like this. Call it dereliction of parental duty or something. Unless the parents can prove they did everything in their power to raise their kids with a sense of normal human decency, they get thrown in jail too. It's bad enough that they've raised a herd of vicious, worthless little beasts … then they turn around and blame every fucking thing on earth, except their own obviously fucked parenting skills.
Maybe reality TV does help make cruelty a socially acceptable behavioral trait. Maybe the ability to post almost anything on MySpace and YouTube does make it easier for kids to torment each other, and show off as though it were cool. And maybe all that does make a parent's job more difficult when they're trying to raise decent, well behaved children. But judging from the comments I've seen from the perpetrators' parents, these assholes wouldn't know a sense of personal responsibility if it cornered them and bashed their heads into a wall repeatedly. What a shock that their children turned out to be worthless shitheads too!
Censoring content on YouTube isn't going to teach a child empathy. Policing MySpace content isn't going to teach a child to take responsibility for their own actions. Shutting down reality TV, while I can't say it would rob the world of any valuable cultural treasures, isn't going to teach a child self-control and anger management skills.
So what do you do when someone's child suddenly turns into a sociopathic monster? How 'bout we lock the parents up for half the duration of the kids' sentence? Could a well-publicized law to that effect actually scare some worthless fuckup parents into taking some responsibility for their little demon spawn? Maybe take the private internet connection out of the kids' bedroom, and make them use a family computer out in the living room where the parents can see what they're doing? Maybe take the TV out of their bedroom, and keep an eye on what they're watching? Maybe ground their rotten little asses if they start turning into vicious little bullies?
I don't know … maybe some adults could actually pull their heads out of their asses, and start acting like parents? In the meantime, maybe someone could just beat the shit out of those six girls, just to see if it would knock a little remorse into them.
@Alpha
Holding parents responsible is a superior idea compared to blaming the popular inlets of influence on teens. However, I think the actual implementation would be a nightmare. What crimes would involve these influences? How would you rate blame? Would you have to factor in unavoidable influences such as friends and natural/genetic child disposition?
Even if this could be implemented, I think it would be heavily criticized as adding extra overhead to each court case as well as highlighting the already existing discrepency in justice for those that have enough money for a good lawyer versus those that do not.
13th April 2008 at 5:31 pm | permalink |No this isn't about the parents. No matter how much you teach your child they can still do stupid shit. I know parents who I'd model my own parenting after, who have 1 kid out of a bunch of 8 who is a complete and total moron and jackass.
This is about those 6 fuckwits and the 2 guys who helped them. I can NOT wait for them to hit prison. I don't care WHAT you present in front of a jury claiming their angels, that video will be enough along with the blind and bruised Victoria will be enough to get them sentenced.
This is about 6 brats who wanted their 15 minutes of fame, and had a mean streak. I believe
I think the parents aren't really feeling what they're putting out there. They're trying to save face by placing blame on other people.
I know I'm not supposed to say this as a future educator but I've met my fare share of shitty children. Yes most of them have shitty parents but some of their parents are really bewildered and have no clue how to fix their kids. The bottom line is that some kids are terrible awful children, who are going to grow up and be terrible awful people and there is nothing we can do to make them better. Stop blaming this on something other than what it is. Terrible AWFUL kids, showing their true colors.
13th April 2008 at 6:43 pm | permalink |Oh but I'm going to bet atleast one of these kids has one of those parents I HATE. The parent who shows up at work defending their shitty kid, thinking they can do know wrong and they SHOULD be punished for producing spoiled brats who grow up and produce more spoiled brats.
13th April 2008 at 6:49 pm | permalink |@hellationships Sorry, I'm not buying it. Even if you are confused, your response is "I have no idea why she would do something like this. We've given her everything" instead of the "not my kid" mentality that the schools are now full of.
If that was one of my kids? Forget it. It wouldn't be one of my kids, because they'd know exactly what I would do if they did. I had a principal from one of my kids' schools look at me in SHOCK when I told her I'd hear my kid was acting up on the bus, had talked to the bus driver, my kid, punishment had been meted, and a new seat was now assigned. Of course these kids giggled. It's all funny until you actually have to deal with repercussions of your actions, which a lot of these kids never do.
13th April 2008 at 7:29 pm | permalink |I think that parents like that should be held at least somewhat responsible. Calling their child a "loving, caring kid" after hearing that he/she was part of a brutal, vicious beating that left a poor girl blind in one eye and deaf in one ear? I got grounded beyond all belief for two months for smacking a girl in the face for calling my mom a fat bitch. This is ridiculous.
13th April 2008 at 8:04 pm | permalink |@hellaionships…
You are wrong - kids *are* the product of their parents. Yes, there are variations within families and some kids rebel, but the teaching of basic decency is something that occurs in the family home.
You may well face 'bewildered' parents who don't know what they've done wrong with their kids - that doesn't excuse them from the responsibility of parenting. If I run down a family in my car I can't claim 'I'm not really sure how to drive. I don't know what went wrong!' Perhaps those parents *would* have a clue if they were forced to face the consequences of their brats.
SC
P.S. I'm a teacher too
13th April 2008 at 8:33 pm | permalink |I do believe that these parents should be forced to do some jail time for letting their kids grow up to think they're above both the law and normal human decency.
My parents? They may have spoiled me a bit growing up by buying me stuff I probably didn't deserve for the fact that I was a bastard for most of my non-adult life, but they didn't go easy on me when I was CAUGHT being a bastard. I got spanked, I got grounded, I got my connection to the house's cable cut off…hell, one time, they took EVERYTHING out of my room except my bed and my desk so I could have a place to sleep and a place to do my homework.
I may not be a shining success in life (mostly due to my own personal incompetence and some self-defeating habits), but at least I never beat someone so badly for petty, worthless, pointless reasons that they were possibly on the verge of brain damage TWICE, then threatened to kill them.
The parents of those children should be held just as responsible as the children themselves, and more parents need to take this case as a wake-up call that if these "perfect", "great", "could never do no wrong" kids can beat someone to near-death, your kid could end up doing it.
To all parents, lawmakers, and "moral guardians": Quit blaming YouTube, MySpace, TV, movies, porn, videogames, comics, books, or whatever evil-of-the-day you can think of to blame and start doing some goddamn parenting. Maybe you'll end up raising someone who will stand up and actually try to stop a beating like those girls gave out instead of standing by and doing nothing (or join in delivering the beating).
13th April 2008 at 9:29 pm | permalink |I was happy to read that these disgusting teenagers are being tried as adults for their crimes.
If my kid did something so disgusting and stupid and wrong they would be begging the police to haul them away to jail when I found at because life at home would certainly be no picnic. They'd never see the internet again, or a school dance, or, or, or… ugh.
And this is what they did to a supposedly popular girl that was on the cheer leading squad with them. I hate to think how they treated the less popular girls at their school. :(
13th April 2008 at 10:00 pm | permalink |I believe there is a lot of evidence to support the fact that once the kid is in school, parents have very little influence over their development (ie do all you can until they are six and then cross your fingers). After that it is largely a function of the schools and peers.
Just see how different your siblings turn out for a case in point.
Of course that doesn't mean that an adult should condone the behaviour of their spawn little shits by making excuses for them.
But after the "Myspace suicide" story a few months back, this idiotic behavior on the part of some parents seems par for the course.
13th April 2008 at 10:06 pm | permalink |personally I think the whole "all you can until they are six and then cross your fingers" is a little ridiculous. True, you can no longer be part of pretty much every single event in your child's life after they start going to school, but there is plenty that a parent can do besides cross their fingers and hope. I can only imagine that when one of these little hellions came home from school crying that some girl said mean things to her, her parent probably said something along the lines of "beat her up and teach her not to be mean to you". That's certainly more damaging than doing nothing, but doing nothing is also more damaging than, for example, simply teaching your daughter to have a little thicker skin with the insults, rather than teaching her to kick ass and take names for even the smallest of slights.
13th April 2008 at 10:48 pm | permalink |@Autodidact: "However, I think the actual implementation would be a nightmare." Oh, sure it would be. It could be simplified a bit by limiting it to felony crimes, for starters. Maybe even only violent felonies. And it wouldn't be too hard to interview school officials, other family members, etc., to find out what the parents' disciplinary history was. If there's a history of the little prince/princess never getting in trouble when they fuck up, and the parent has demonstrated the "not my darling baby, s/he'd never do that" attitude when problems ocurred … well then. Lock 'em the fuck up along with their little shits.
@Hellationships: I know kids do stupid, shitty things, even when their parents do try … but I can't help but think there's more to it here. This wasn't just a kid doing something like getting into a fight in the lunchroom. This wasn't a "good kid" who got sucked into drug addiction. I'd find it really hard to believe that these kids had nice, caring, normal families, who disciplined them appropriately when they fucked up. It's just too crazy-extreme.
@pippa: Exactly. I'm betting none of these kids had parents who'd go talk to the bus driver personally, if their kid acted like a little shit on the bus.
@Setsunaela: Yeah, the "she's really a loving, caring kid" line blew me away. What fucking planet is that woman from?!
@Copley: "'bewildered' parents who don't know what they've done wrong with their kids - that doesn't excuse them from the responsibility of parenting." Exactly. Being an incompetent but "well meaning" parent doesn't cut it. Ignorance of the law is not a valid legal defense … and ignorance of child rearing shouldn't be either, IMO.
@Anonymous Poster: "The parents of those children should be held just as responsible as the children themselves, and more parents need to take this case as a wake-up call that if these "perfect", "great", "could never do no wrong" kids can beat someone to near-death, your kid could end up doing it." Pretty much my point. :-) Good summary.
@missbossy: Siblings can also turn out differently because their parents change over the years as they're raising them. I know a young woman who's mother pretty much stopped paying attention to her when she hit 12-13 years old … and if her peers and school were all that was influencing her at that point, she probably wouldn't have been emotionally crushed by it. Anyhow, not that I'm going to go into detail, but suffice to say, parents have a HUGE influence on their kids, throughout their lives.
13th April 2008 at 11:17 pm | permalink |Amen, Alphabitch.
13th April 2008 at 11:36 pm | permalink |@loretta: Your comment got lost in my moderation queue somehow … :-) Found it now.
I'm really glad they're being tried as adults too. What they did is entirely out of the realm of "juvenile" behavior … this is more like what you'd expect from drug dealers who found out one of their "buddies" might be a narc.
14th April 2008 at 12:51 am | permalink |While the parents may not be /criminally/ responsible for their kids actions, I believe that it will be the parents' insurance companies and personal resources that will be paying when the financial awards are given to the victim. However many millions she (and her family) is awarded won't be paid by the 14-yr old children. So the parents will suffer for their children's actions — just not jail time.
However…
Because of all the people in this country that like reality TV, Springer, slow down to look at car accidents, etc. those parents (and the kids) will quite likely get very rich from this by selling their stories to media outlets. The hope is that the money will not quite cover the legal fees, but these days, who knows. The market for other people's pain is extremely lucrative. To the point that I'm honestly surprised that we don't have any actual death sports on TV yet. I guess that's just the old Puritan influence: if you cannot admit you're addicted to something, outlaw it so that only the true addicts can get it.
14th April 2008 at 5:22 am | permalink |Like I said, I'm sure a few of these kids have the parents that are awful to deal with. They come to school and they argue with the teacher. They request that their kid doesn't go to a certain activity because they don't want to. But honestly, unless these kids were abused at home there's nothing leading us to believe that the parents did anything that would bring about this behavior.
I also know that teenagers are also developmentally fucked in terms of the parts of their brain where LOGIC comes into play. (Hence the fact that they didn't think they'd get caught, by putting it on one of the most viewed websites in the world.) Developmentally teenagers think that they live in a world all their own and that things happen TO them, and them only. I'm sure those kids are sitting in jail going "Why is everyone being so mean to me? I didn't do anything that wrong."
I saw the video and there was a definite ring leader. Doesn't excuse them, but that desire to follow people goes a long way in a teenagers mind.
I think we should look into the families of the children involved, but I wouldn't be surprised if nothing is found. I've seen cruelty from a 3 year old class all the way up to high school seniors.
I also think we should take a good look at how we market pain and torture in this society. I thank my aunt and uncle everyday that they outlawed things on the television. I wasn't brought up watching half the things that the kids I observe are. I wasn't allowed to watch PG-13 movies until I was 13, R rated until I was 17. Did I get to the things I was outlawed? Yes, but I knew that my parents didn't agree and that meant something to me. Eventually when I was old enough, the bans were lifted and I realized that at 10 years old I didn't understand those things.
I get incredibly sad, when a child is 5 and can't move to the 4 year old class because he hasn't grasped the alphabet yet, but he can tell me about all the movies he watches with his mom.
It's a multi-dimensional problem to figure out what the fuck is wrong with the younger generation and fix it before they ruin themselves. Yes, parents contribute by giving the child the fundamentals but you can live above your upbringing and I've seen that happen as well.
14th April 2008 at 6:13 am | permalink |****NEWS FLASH****
…an associate of Dr. Phil bailed out the suspected ringleader, the up-and-coming Mercedes Nichols, so that they could do a show on the teen beating…
get pissed off here: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/04/13/2008-04-13_dr_phil_staff_bails_out_florida_girl_cha-1.html
14th April 2008 at 6:32 am | permalink |Six ganging up on one is bullshit. The victim should get together with her buddies, find the little bastards and beat the shit out of each one. That's the only way. . . An eye for an eye.
14th April 2008 at 6:42 am | permalink |@Hellationships
"But honestly, unless these kids were abused at home there's nothing leading us to believe that the parents did anything that would bring about this behavior."
It's what the parents don't do that's the problem - like setting boundaries and teaching about consequences of actions
"I thank my aunt and uncle everyday that they outlawed things on the television. I wasn't brought up watching half the things that the kids I observe are. I wasn't allowed to watch PG-13 movies until I was 13, R rated until I was 17. Did I get to the things I was outlawed? Yes, but I knew that my parents didn't agree and that meant something to me. Eventually when I was old enough, the bans were lifted and I realized that at 10 years old I didn't understand those things."
Erm… you seem to have contradicted your previous argument! What you are describing is parenting. Your aunt and uncle set boundaries and enforced them. The parents of the girls under discussion obviously have not done this.
"I get incredibly sad, when a child is 5 and can't move to the 4 year old class because he hasn't grasped the alphabet yet, but he can tell me about all the movies he watches with his mom."
Once again - poor parenting.
"It's a multi-dimensional problem to figure out what the fuck is wrong with the younger generation"
Agreed, but, as you have rightly illustrated in your comment, it centres around the parents. I've been teaching for 16 years in a range of secondary schools and I've never met an arsehole kid who didn't have arsehole parents!
SC
14th April 2008 at 7:33 am | permalink |There has been some research lately that shows that parents really have little effect on whether or not their children turn out good or not. It's mostly up to the child's friends groups, so the girls in this probably brought each other down.
So I don't think you can honestly blame the parents for the girls' actions, though you can blame them for not accepting that their children are horrible.
14th April 2008 at 9:48 am | permalink |Seriously I blame the parents in part as well as the the rest of society. MySpace has given a place for these kids to be big and bad and feel invulnerable as they on line and don't see anyone being able to reach them. I am surprised this does not happen more often with MySpace users.
Reality shows I am not so sure about unless you are talking about Maximum Exposure which frequently airs home made footage of terrible things happening to people including fights. If there are other shows I just don't know anything about them.
Parents are given the responsibility of ingraining it into their kids heads that his is not socially acceptable behavior. The parents of all these kids are failures. It may be tough but it is not impossible. What about the kids that don't do this shit. Think their parents have something to do with that? I do.
It is your job as a parent to rasie your child/children to be decent human beings. Now I know there are the intellect deficient that will say they can't monitor everything and don't want to be too strict because that causes other problems. Here's my answer you fucking dolts. You start when they are young and be consistent for their the remainder of their lives. It's not easy but as a parent my son and daughter are a direct reflection of me.
Their actions tell what they have been taught and if they have been taught how to respect others and not be a fucking worthless sack of flesh. If you don't teach your kids how to behave then you are letting the society tell them. Society is pretty fucking stupid most the time and is ruled by sheep. Teach a child how to think and they might make some pretty good choices. Tell a child what to think and they will be nothing but a follower looking for the next voice of reason which may not be all that reasonable.
14th April 2008 at 10:22 am | permalink |Who the fuck names their kid Mercedes anymore anyway? Is there anyone in the U.S. who DOESN'T think of either the German sedan or a stripper when they hear the name? You might as well just cut to the chase and name your child Porsche or Destiny.
Ironically, the name Mercedes is derived from the Spanish word merced meaning mercy. If Karma or The Force or the Second Coming or whatever other providential energy field is really out there, young Mercedes will one day receive a Old Testament style beat down….without mercy.
14th April 2008 at 11:25 am | permalink |yep.
14th April 2008 at 2:42 pm | permalink |video of her parents speaking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1p0jO1EqGg
this is utterly crazy and insane. those bitches should get charged as adults.
and i wouldn't even blame the kids parents. the teens themselves need to be responsible for that. the parents definetly should've known where the kids were and what they were doing and especially the adults at whatever house the beating took place at… where the fuck were the adults????
15th April 2008 at 7:49 am | permalink |@hayden: I know a girl named destiny and porche. and even one named Tequila.
15th April 2008 at 8:13 am | permalink |@nurbles: "… it will be the parents' insurance companies and personal resources that will be paying when the financial awards are given to the victim." True enough. But I've also heard you can declare bankruptcy, and duck out of shit like that in some cases. I'd like to see some kind of penalty they *couldn't* duck out of.
@Hellationships: "… unless these kids were abused at home there's nothing leading us to believe that the parents did anything that would bring about this behavior." I have to agree with Copley on this point. It's what parents don't do that cause problems like this, IMO.
@ray: "… an associate of Dr. Phil bailed out the suspected ringleader" Dr. Phil is a fucking soulless leech of a human being.
@PV: "An eye for an eye." In this case, I wouldn't be too sad to see that happen. I doubt it will though.
@Copley: "I've been teaching for 16 years in a range of secondary schools and I've never met an arsehole kid who didn't have arsehole parents!" Hear, hear. The only cases I've heard of where a kid was really a rotten little prick when his/her parents weren't pricks, or spineless incompetents, is when a child was adopted by nice people after being taken away from an abusive home.
@amy: "… parents really have little effect on whether or not their children turn out good or not." You could probably find a study showing anything you wanted to see, if you're talking psychology. Personally, I'd have to read details on that one before I called it anything but bullshit. Sure, kids' peer groups have an effect on their behavior, but I don't believe parents have no influence whatsoever.
@TheMovie Whore: "Teach a child how to think and they might make some pretty good choices. Tell a child what to think and they will be nothing but a follower looking for the next voice of reason which may not be all that reasonable." Another good point. Not only do you need to set boundaries and use consistent discipline, you should also teach your children to stand up and think for themselves.
@Haden: If Karma or The Force or the Second Coming or whatever other providential energy field is really out there, young Mercedes will one day receive a Old Testament style beat down….without mercy." Hopefully, all of the little shitheads will.
@Swayla: "those bitches should get charged as adults." They are being tried as adults, last I heard. And thank goodness. Also, the beating happened at Mercedes' grandmother's house, while her grandmother was at work.
And who in the fuck names their kid Tequila?! Do you know why she got stuck with a name like that?
15th April 2008 at 6:13 pm | permalink |A bunch of teenage cheerleaders… wanting to make a shocking net-hit video, with another chick as a victim. Two guys are involved.
… and THIS is what they come up with?
I'm more disappointed than shocked. The lack of creativity is astounding.
Think how much nicer, less painful and less life-ending it'd have been for everyone involved if they'd just been more horny. Oi.
15th April 2008 at 7:35 pm | permalink |@zef: I'm not sure the criminal penalties would have been any less in that case …
15th April 2008 at 9:43 pm | permalink |True, was more or less meant as a joke.
However, I'd personally be a whole lot less puzzled by this if they'd picked something that could be tied to ANY sort of "human" motivation whatsoever.
They picked something blind, that wasn't even thought out, and well - primitive. Something that in itself wasn't really that shocking (just the context was), took a lot of effort and a lot of risk and didn't even have an explainable motivation.
The whole thing just screams "the IQ of our generation went down 20 points!".
15th April 2008 at 10:38 pm | permalink |I think nothing new under the Sun. Very hard to be good parent and very hard to be good children on this World.Wrong system made this bad products. That's all.
15th April 2008 at 11:51 pm | permalink |@zef: Yes, the sheer, short-sighted stupidity of the whole fucking thing is really stunning. "Hey, I know, let's commit a brutal, violent felony, videotape it, and post it online so everyone knows exactly who did it! It'll be fun!"
@tony: Sorry, I can't be that blasé about the whole thing.
16th April 2008 at 12:24 am | permalink |@tony
"I think nothing new under the Sun. Very hard to be good parent and very hard to be good children on this World.Wrong system made this bad products. That's all."
Yeah… it's the friggin' SYSTEM! Let's just not bother trying to change anything - our kids are screwed whatever we do.
That's the attitude we need more of!
16th April 2008 at 1:10 am | permalink |I've been in the seat of Victoria Lindsay, for seven years of bullying, age 7-14. The worst physical injuries I suffered was a broken wrist once, and a dislocated shoulder now and then. As for the mental ones… I won't go into those.
As for those kids… if I could get my hands on those who bullied me, I'd happily strangle them, and I'm not joking.
My point is that these kids should be locked out of sight for a very, very long time, and that their families need a reality check.
16th April 2008 at 9:06 am | permalink |I completely agree that the kids should be punished in one way or another. I certainly agree that what they did was bestial, and personally it disgusted me - however… they've lived what… maybe 15-16 years of their life? Only 10 or so years of life past their 'total childhood' moments.
Yes, they behaved cruelly, inexcusably so, but still.
I have no doubts that society would probably be better off without them, however - they're here, and if you remove the context… what they did is nothing. Bestial, horrible, fucked up beyond belief - but still, it's nothing when you look at it coldly.
They should be judged to have some sort of 10-20 year future debt to their victim. Maybe have a % of any earnings they ever make, go to their victim, something like that.
Beyond that, though… just keep in mind that they are, however fucked up, still the same as we are. There is in my opinion absolutely no such thing as evil, or good, it's all circumstance.
They're still humans. Don't go all cowboy on them. (I'm not a hippie, or a super liberal, or a super right wing, or an american whatsoever - I'm some norwegian guy. (just a geek, I love computers) - to make my disclaimer.)
16th April 2008 at 9:25 am | permalink |In addition to the above… I don't feel that punishing the parents would SOLVE anything. I really don't. It wouldn't really scare any other parents.
It would realistically only scare the parents that were ALREADY (probably far too much so) protective and restrictive of their children.
The fucked up parents wouldn't give a rat's ass. Keep that in mind.
What I do think, though, is that when parents have their kids behaving as this at such a young age - they should be restricted, under pain of *heavy* fining (imprisonment would simply remove workers from society, what would be the point?), from ever having kids again.
That would, in my opinion, be a valid ruling.
As you can tell, I'm fairly opposed to imprisonment or any sort of "physical" punishment, unless it's necessary to prevent *future* incidents.
In this case I don't think it'd work.
However, heavy penalties economically most certainly would be felt - and feared, and without removing the working resources to society that the family in question would be categorized as.
You have to look at these things coldly, or you end up with (eventually) a monster of laws and rulings that scare the shit out of you. I know that's just my opinion, and I know it sounds fucked up, but I believe it's right.
16th April 2008 at 11:16 am | permalink |I guess I should add that I'm much in favor of the old viking laws, on practically any issue.
A fight to the death and/or simply an economical/power fine to the family in question.
The former being rather severe, and the lesser being pure effiency. Whichever the path, though, it gets the job done and people don't suffer greatly. (well, some I guess probably did suffer, I doubt every death was quick nor every fine fair - however it's the point of it).
I like clean ends. Clean solutions.
Clean solutions exist, efficient solutions exist.
Imprisonment and the "justice system" - particulary so that of the US (no offense), is neither clean nor efficient. It's a beast.
People are punished. Society pays the "ticket" for their punishment (and it's a large one). Prison officials, judges and lawyers cash in.
It's ridiculous.
You have an incredible amount of suffering on behalf of the judged, and an incredible bill to pay for that 'judgement', and the only ones that get ANYTHING out of it are the ones handing out and/or litigating the judgement. (in addition, the 'judged' will probably never recover, grow worse, and become and even less socity-compatible person after the judging is completed)
I know it's a bit off topic. Probably a lot off topic. However, everytime I see someone being hoisted up for lynching - for whatever reason - particulary in the US (with it's 1 in 300 imprisoned citizens - pure statistics); this is what's on my mind.
I cannot in good heart agree with it.
16th April 2008 at 11:29 am | permalink |Who to blame? Parents for being fucked up themselves? School for being negligent to that “special sort” of behaving? Society for creating monsters, because that’s what the fuck society is doing? The girls themselves for being confused little assholes without empathy? Who the fuck do we blame?
16th April 2008 at 3:31 pm | permalink |@copley: Exactly.
@jojo: Yeah, people who haven't been bullied can't really understand exactly how bad it is. I have a couple friends who were bullied in school badly, and they easily have as much emotional/self-esteem damage as anyone I know who came from an abusive home.
It really is horrible, and really sad that it's not taken more seriously.
And I find it rather improbable that these girls could do something like this, and have no prior history of being shitheads to their classmates in other circumstances.
16th April 2008 at 3:54 pm | permalink |@zef: OK, I'll go along with barring the parents from having any other children … and possibly a standing order to take any other kids they already have away from them, if they show ANY signs of similar behavior.
And the idea of having the perpetrators themselves pay a percentage of their future earnings to the victim for some set period of time isn't bad either …
… but I do also think the vicious little shits ought to be locked up for a few years too, somewhere where they can learn a thing or two about discipline and how they're not the center of the goddamn universe.
@bill: I'm going with parents, and the girls themselves. I'm not sure how much a school could do about it … IF (and only if) the girls acted like bullies at school, sure the school could suspend them. But if they sit at home with their parents telling them how unfair the suspension is in the meantime, or let them run around doing whatever they please, like the suspension is a damn vacation, it counteracts the school's punishment completely.
16th April 2008 at 4:11 pm | permalink |ok, parents and girls. the parents raised the children a certain way, may be a fucke'd up way, but anyway, he he.. ,the girls wouldn't know what the hell their were doin, because the parent's etc, etc, .
16th April 2008 at 5:50 pm | permalink |my point is, the girls should have picked up something while in school, from their peers, teatchers whatever, their sense of sympathy, ei ..ei?…
@bill: I've met enough decent, successful people with fucked up families, I could never blame something like this entirely on the parents … so yes, it does seem rather amazing that the vicious little twats never picked up any basic human empathy from anywhere in 14-17 years on earth.
Unless there's just something "in the water" in that particular town that selectively impairs emotional/moral development in the children?
16th April 2008 at 6:03 pm | permalink |yeah the water, he he. or some fuckin' entity, like the aliens telling you what to do, or you're under spell of some hypnotic force, and you just have to do, whatever…, and then you go out and do it..!??
16th April 2008 at 6:41 pm | permalink |@bill: Aliens … humm … I always knew there was something a little odd about Florida …
16th April 2008 at 6:54 pm | permalink |well, isn't florida the home of the notorius bush family?
16th April 2008 at 7:29 pm | permalink |Ah the old "blame game" thing again I see, blame reality television instead of taking responsibility for their own actions! Reality TV makes a change from Marilyn Manson anyway!
As a parent of three teenagers, I believe that good parenting is the key to a well behaved child, however they still have their "moments" BUT their moments are a stereotypical teenage "wobbler" NOT going beating the shit out of somebody!
Having said that my daughter is now acting awful, but that is since she went to live with her father, truthfully! He lets her stay out etc….
I watched horror movies from about 11 years old, I was brought up to respect others [except for complete cunts] and obey rules. It stays with you for the rest of your life, parents should teach morals….
Although their are the "odd" handful that seem to be terrible reguardless of their parents? Either way a Judge could decide, something needs to be done at some point, I cannot even go to the shops thanks to certain gangs of kids and thier happy slapping antics!
17th April 2008 at 8:18 am | permalink |Two things should immediately be done in this case, given the undeniable guilt of all involved.
17th April 2008 at 3:14 pm | permalink |First, the parents should be sterilized - both of them. Obviously, they should never breed again - with themselves or others.
Second, sterilize the little fucking cunts. Clearly from their behavior, they are fucked up and will undoubtedly have fucked up kids. Other punishment should then be metted out as existing laws provide.
@bill: Only GW's brother, as far as I know. GW's ranch is in Texas, and I think Daddy Bush might still live in New England?
@greenie: Yep. Parents' choices with their kids have a whole hell of a lot to do with their behavior, IMO.
@michael: I wouldn't have a problem with that either … given, as you said, the undeniable guilt of everyone involved. It makes me laugh when I see news stories dutifully saying the girls "allegedly" beat her up …
17th April 2008 at 3:55 pm | permalink |I'm torn on this…
Holding parents accountable seams logical, otherwise why make a separation of minors and adults? I'm not torn on that issue at all because it seams rather straightforward—you chose to have the mother fuckers, now they're your problem until they turn 18. However I don't believe we ought to have a law attempting to value some morals above others; which is what a law about a minimum level of parenting, beyond what we have now, would attempt to do. And I don't really wanna start this argument because I don't have the time to deal with all the hypocrisy or ambiguity such legislation would entail.
Anyway, what I'm torn on is the fact that these kids are bing tried as adults. The kids involved in this, to my knowledge, are all minors and should be treated as such. There is no logical explanation to why any reasonable person would behave this way. Everyone involved knew what they were doing was wrong, and they proved it by threatening to beat her again if she called the cops. So why would anyone do something like this knowing it was wrong? I remember willingly and knowingly doing illegal things when I was younger, even younger then these kids, don't you? Maybe not as extreme but illegal none the less. And when I look back at my behavior I know why I shouldn't have done those things, I understand how, why, and what exactly made them wrong, but I couldn't for the life of me tell you why I did them in the first place. If I had been cough back then I would guess may answer to “why,” would have been “just because”. Now the only explanation, beyond “just because,” I can offer is that I was a stupid kid. My moral compass was intact, it said “better not,” I just chose not to listen. I had no fear of consequences, no life experience and no understanding or care for the world beyond which I lived. I was untouchable. I was indestructible. I exemplified all the reasons why there's a separation between minors and adults. Such behavior is inexplicable, and the only defense one can offer is… they're just kids. I'm fully aware that adults can act in the same way, but once you make it to adulthood you're expected to have gained some worldly understanding, and that's why you should be held accountable to a higher extent then a child, because you're not one.
Now before you get all pissed off at me let me make a couple things clear: 1. Given the utter lack of remorse shown by all party's, parents and children alike, I don't give a fuck if these particular dregs spend several years in federal-pound-me-in-the-ass-prison, 2. I'm in no way suggesting leniency toward anyone involved, I believe that everyone should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, but as minors.
Parents should be held accountable for minors to some extent, and in this particular case the parents should be sterilized….
17th April 2008 at 5:35 pm | permalink |@secularsuperman: I think the biggest reasons for trying someone as an adult are the availability of stronger penalties for particularly heinous crimes, and the fact that an adult conviction won't be "sealed" or expunged from your record when you turn 18.
And yes, I did a lot of stupid and/or illegal things when I was a minor … but the whole distinction being I never did ANYTHING even CLOSE to as horrible as this. And that's exactly when the "tried as adults" option comes into play. This crime was completely out of the "normal teen crime" ballpark.
There does seem to be a lot of support for sterilizing the parents, or banning them from ever having children again. ;-)
17th April 2008 at 6:07 pm | permalink |Well this entire issue has given me some not-enjoyed insight into my grandmother.. I always knew she was a bully but jeez.
18th April 2008 at 9:08 am | permalink |She is on the side of "well if that girl hadn't posted/said anything inflammatory then she wouldn't have been beaten up, now would she?" which frankly horrified myself and my mother.
@setsunaela: Wow, what a lovely woman! *shakes head*
18th April 2008 at 2:29 pm | permalink |